THE FEDERAL PRISON INDUSTRY’S EFFECTS ON
THE U.S. ECONOMY AND THE SMALL BUSINESS
ENVIRONMENT

JOINT HEARING
BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE, EMPOWERMENT
& GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS
AND THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE & EXPORTS
OF THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC, OCTOBER 1, 2003

Serial No. 108–39
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house
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WASHINGTON

93–118 PDF

:

2003

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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman
´ ZQUEZ, New York
NYDIA VELA
ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland, Vice
JUANITA MILLENDER-MCDONALD,
Chairman
California
SUE KELLY, New York
TOM UDALL, New Mexico
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
FRANK BALLANCE, North Carolina
PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania
DONNA CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands
JIM DEMINT, South Carolina
SAM GRAVES, Missouri
DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
EDWARD SCHROCK, Virginia
CHARLES GONZALEZ, Texas
TODD AKIN, Missouri
GRACE NAPOLITANO, California
´ , Puerto Rico
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia
ANI´BAL ACEVEDO-VILA
BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania
ED CASE, Hawaii
MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado
MADELEINE BORDALLO, Guam
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
DENISE MAJETTE, Georgia
JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania
JIM MARSHALL, Georgia
JEB BRADLEY, New Hampshire
MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine
´ NCHEZ, California
BOB BEAUPREZ, Colorado
LINDA SA
CHRIS CHOCOLA, Indiana
ENI FALEOMAVAEGA, American Samoa
STEVE KING, Iowa
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina
THADDEUS MCCOTTER, Michigan
J. MATTHEW SZYMANSKI, Chief of Staff and Chief Counsel
PHIL ESKELAND, Policy Director
MICHAEL DAY, Minority Staff Director

(II)

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CONTENTS
WITNESSES
Page

Hoekstra, Hon. Peter (R-Michigan) ........................................................................
Lappin, Harley G., Federal Prison Industries .......................................................
Fay, Christopher, The Milton S. Eisenhower Foundation ....................................
Palatiello, John, U.S. Chamber of Commerce .......................................................
Boenigk, Rebecca, Women Impacting Public Policy ..............................................
McClure, Angie, Habersham Metal Products ........................................................

5
11
13
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18

APPENDIX
Opening statements:
Akin, Hon. Todd ................................................................................................
Toomey, Hon. Patrick J. ...................................................................................
Prepared statements:
Hoekstra, Hon. Peter ........................................................................................
Lappin, Harley G. .............................................................................................
Fay, Christopher ...............................................................................................
Palatiello, John .................................................................................................
Boenigk, Rebecca ..............................................................................................
McClure, Angie .................................................................................................
American Apparel & Footwear Association ....................................................
American Federation of Government Employees, AFL–CIO ........................
Contract Services Association of America ......................................................
Office Furniture Dealers Alliance ...................................................................
Uniform & Textile Service Association ...........................................................

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THE FEDERAL PRISON INDUSTRY’S EFFECTS
ON THE U.S. ECONOMY AND THE SMALL
BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 2003

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE, EMPOWERMENT, AND
GOVERNMENT,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE, AND
EXPORTS,
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittees met, pursuant to call, at 2:10 p.m. in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Todd Akin [Chairman
of the Subcommittee on Workforce, Empowerment, and Government Programs], presiding.
Present from Subcommittee on Tax, Finance, and Exports: Representatives Toomey, Chabot, Musgrave, Beauprez, MillenderMcDonald, Ballance, and Majette
Present from Subcommittee on Workforce, Empowerment, and
Government Programs: Representatives Akin and McCotter
Chairman AKIN. The meeting will come to order. Good afternoon.
I would like to begin by thanking my friend and colleague, Congressman Pat Toomey, who chairs the Subcommittee on Tax, Finance, and Exports, for joining me in holding this joint hearing. I
know the Federal Prison Industries is of great interest to him, and,
like many other Members, he has concerns about the impact of FPI
or Federal Prison Industries on small business in general.
FPI was established 69 years ago with the following goals. First
of all, employing and providing skills and training to inmates,
keeping them constructively occupied, as well as producing market
quality goods for sale to the federal government, and then in addition operating FPI in a self-sustaining manner, and then minimizing FPI’s impact on private businesses and labor. While acknowledging these as admirable goals, the Committee is concerned
as to how well FPI is achieving these goals, particularly whether
or not FPI is minimizing its impact on private business and labor.
Congressman Pete Hoekstra of Michigan has recently proposed
House Resolution 1829, the Federal Prison Industries Competition
in Contracting Act, that would significantly change the way business is done at FPI. Congressman Hoekstra, thank you for joining
us. I am grateful that you have agreed to testify before this Committee as to the merits of your bill.
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I would also like to recognize Dr. Lappin recently became the
CEO of Federal Prison Industries. Congratulations, Dr. Lappin. I
look forward to hearing your testimony and that of the others who
have been kind enough to join us here today.
Before we begin, however, I would like to give my other colleagues an opportunity for an opening statement, so with that I
would go to Congressman Toomey if you would like.
[Mr. Akin’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman TOOMEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
joining me in this hearing. I do think this is a very important
issue, and I look forward to examining the role of the Federal Prison Industries or FPI.
As most of us no doubt know, FPI was given a special kind of
status in the government procurement process. I believe it is called
mandatory source status, which essentially means that private sector competitors cannot compete against the Federal Prison Industry unless the FPI grants an exemption from what is essentially a
monopoly.
It seems to me that there is substantial evidence that this policy
has been harmful to American industry, American workers and a
variety of industries, especially the textile, furniture manufacturing
and a number of others. I think at times it actually means people
are closing their doors, people who are trying to run a small business and trying to make ends meet for their family.
In 2001, we made a substantive change in how this policy is carried out with respect to the Defense Department, and I hope we
will have some discussion about that change and other changes,
and I hope we will contemplate what has been happening in recent
years where Federal Prison Industry sales have grown quite significantly; at least that is my understanding.
I, too, look forward to the testimony of my colleague from Michigan, Mr. Hoekstra, who has been really a champion on this issue
for a number of years now and who was really the leading force
on getting the changes in the DOD and who has co-sponsored a
bill, H.R. 1829, which is the Federal Prison Industries Competition
in Contracting Act of 2003 and which I am a co-sponsor.
I should say as a general matter I do not object to work programs
for prisoners, but I do believe that law abiding, hardworking citizens who are just trying to support their families ought to at least
get at equal shot at government contracts and not be frozen out in
favor of an industry that employs exclusively convicted prisoners.
I am looking forward to the testimony of all the witnesses and
a series of questions, and I thank the Chairman for conducting the
hearing today.
[Mr. Toomey’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you very much. I also had opportunity
for a couple of other opening statements. I do not know if Congressman Udall is here.
Mr. Carter, I understand you have a witness that you would like
to introduce. Let us go ahead, and why do you not please introduce
your witness. Then we will go ahead straight to Congressman
Hoekstra.
Mr. CARTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Akin, Chairman Toomey, I would like to thank you for holding this hearing

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and for allowing my constituent, Rebecca Boenigk of Bryan, Texas,
to testify on behalf of women-owned businesses who sell goods and
services to the federal government.
Rebecca Boenigk co-founded Neutral Posture, Inc. with her mother in 1990 and has served as chief executive officer since 1996. Ms.
Boenigk and her mother led Neutral Posture from a start-up company to a publicly held company in just nine years. She has 21
years of experience in research, development, design and manufacturing of ergonomic seating.
Ms. Boenigk serves on the Industry Advisory Board of the National Science Foundation, University Cooperative Research Center
in Ergonomics at Texas A&M University, which is in my district.
She also serves as a board member of the Center of
Entrepreneurialship in the Mays Business School at Texas A&M
University.
Ms. Boenigk is a founding member of Women Impacting Public
Policy, which was founded to advocate for women business owners.
She is the co-recipient of the Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the
Year award in manufacturing in Neutral Posture and has received
numerous awards under her direction.
Ms. Boenigk’s first priority is her family. Married 15 years to
Bobby Boenigk, she has two children, Rachel, 13, and Ryan, 12.
She leads company efforts in supporting local community organizations such as Still Creek Boys Ranch, the Childrens and Go Texan
organization and is the chair of the Jody Moore Memorial Fund for
Breast Cancer Research.
It is my honor to introduce Rebecca to the Committee. I believe
her background and leadership will prove very useful to the Committee’s oversight of Federal Prison Industries and opportunities of
women-owned businesses to sell to the federal government.
I thank you for recognizing me, and I would ask to be excused
for another hearing.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Judge.
Could you please have the nice gentlelady that you were introducing raise her hand so I know who we are talking about here?
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Judge.
Also, I believe we have another witness who is going to be introduced by Congressman Norwood. Is that correct?
Mr. NORWOOD. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for the
opportunity, first of all, to have this hearing. As a co-sponsor of Mr.
Hoekstra’s bill, I am encouraged by the fact that more of us in different districts are beginning to wake up and understand what this
is doing to small businesses in our district, so thank you, Chairman
Akin and Chairman Toomey, for having this meeting and allowing
someone not on your Committee to attend.
I really appreciate the chance to introduce to all of you Angie
McClure. Angie, please stand up. There you are way back in the
back. She is going to lend her expertise to all of us today, as she
did to me this past August as I spent a few hours in their plant
in Cornelia, Georgia.
Ms. McClure has served as vice president of Habersham Metal
Products Company in Cornelia, Georgia, since 1995. Prior to joining
Habersham Metal, Ms. McClure served as a law clerk for a Chief
Magistrate Judge in the state court system of Georgia for seven

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years. She holds a Bachelor’s degree in both Public Administration
and Criminal Justice from Brenau University in Gainesville, Georgia, and a Master’s in Business Administration also from Brenau
University.
Mr. Chairman, as I said, I had the opportunity to tour the
Habersham Metal factory in August and learn of the positive impact that Mr. Hoekstra’s Federal Prison Industries Competition in
Contracting Act bill will do. I was already a co-sponsor on the congressman’s bill, but spending those few hours in this plant with
Ms. McClure really brought home to me the difficulty that smaller
businesses are having in competing in a world where labor is not
very expensive for those who are building similar products.
This not only affects Habersham Metal in Georgia, but it also affects 600 and something other companies in Georgia. We are all
going to have a little meeting at Georgia Tech in November and
discuss this problem, but I am a very strong supporter of this legislation.
I thank and congratulate both of you chairmen for having this
hearing, and I am particularly grateful that you have given me the
opportunity to come introduce my constituent to you.
With that I will yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Congressman Norwood. I had a
chance to be down in Atlanta a couple weeks back, and it is a wonderful place. I appreciate your doing the honors.
We are going to have two different line-up of witnesses. The first
one is Congressman Hoekstra, who is, I might add, a gentleman
who needs no introduction. However, there is someone who did
want to introduce him here, and we are going to go to Congressman Toomey now for that introduction.
Chairman TOOMEY. Thank you, Chairman. Yes, I did indeed
want to introduce my colleague. Just for the record, Peter Hoekstra
is in his sixth term representing the Second Congressional District
of Michigan. He serves on three Committees, Education and Workforce, Transportation and Infrastructure, and the Select Committee
on Intelligence.
In addition to all the work he has done for years on the Federal
Prison Industries issue, he is an outspoken advocate and expert on
a variety of education issues, workforce issues, and he is a great
champion of fiscal discipline and fiscal responsibility.
Congressman Hoekstra has worked tirelessly on Federal Prison
Industry reform. I admire his work on this effort, his dedication to
his constituents. I am looking forward to hearing his discussion of
his bill, which I indicated earlier I am proud to be a co-sponsor of,
and I should point out that this is a bill that at this point has become the product of a great deal of bipartisan work and a great
deal of input, so I thank you for joining us today and look forward
to your testimony,
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Congressman, if you would proceed then, please? Do you have a
statement, I believe, to start with?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. I am full of statements today.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Good. We will see if we can keep it to
about five minutes or so worth of statements maybe. Thank you.

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STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE PETER HOEKSTRA, A REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN

Mr. HOEKSTRA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to both of
the chairmen, for allowing me to talk about something that I do
have a passion about. I have a passion about it because of the impact that it has had on people in my district and the kind of impact
that it has had on small businesses and your constituents and others around the country.
FPI is able to derive and deprive small businesses from the opportunity to bid on over $500 million worth of business each and
every year through the process that is called mandatory sourcing.
Mandatory sourcing, very straightforward, means we bid—actually,
we do not bid. We tell you to buy from us. We tell the federal government to buy from us, and no one else has the opportunity to bid
for that work. It is rather unique.
I know that this is not a legislative hearing, but I am pleased
to report that the Committee on the Judiciary has reported out
H.R. 1829, which a number of you have sponsored. It is a bipartisan bill. Representative Barney Frank, Representative Mac Collins, Representatives Carolyn Maloney and Bernard Sanders of the
House Judiciary Committee are all co-sponsors. John Conyers, the
Ranking Democrat on Judiciary, is also a supporter of the bill.
This bill was reported out of Judiciary Committee on a strong bipartisan vote. The principal amendment seeking to weaken the bill
was defeated on a bipartisan roll call of 19 to eight. The bill enjoys
strong bipartisan support within the ranks of the House Committee
on Small Business with 14 co-sponsors, led by the Committee’s
Chairman, Mr. Manzullo, and the Committee’s Ranking Democratic
Member, Ms. Velazquez. Like I said, we have worked on this for
a number of years and have brought together one of the most
unique coalitions I think in the House today.
The core objective of H.R. 1829 is the elimination of FPI status
as a mandatory source to the various federal agencies. The bill requires FPI to compete for its federal contract opportunities rather
than simply being able to take them as they can today. The elimination of FPI’s mandatory source status will provide access to federal contracting opportunities now foreclosed.
FPI and other opponents of the elimination of FPI’s mandatory
source status are now trying to hide between the FPI stable of suppliers, suggesting that enactment of H.R. 1829 will hurt them. As
with many of FPI’s assertions, this one proves false.
With FPI operating as a prime contractor exercising its mandatory source status, an FPI supplier has a very preferential place in
the federal procurement process. Remember what mandatory
sources means in practical business terms. FPI, rather than the
buying agency, determines whether FPI’s offered product and delivery schedule meets the agency’s mission needs.
FPI, rather than the buying agency, determines the reasonableness of FPI’s offered price. FPI can demand its offered price provided that it does not exceed the highest price offered to the government for a comparable item. The highest price offered to the
government.

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No government purchases need to have been made at such price,
and FPI determines comparability. To make a competitive purchase, the buying agency must actually obtain FPI’s permission, a
so-called waiver. As a former business person, I would like to be
part of a team that can force its customers to make purchases from
them. It gives me a guaranteed base of sales. Why would I want
to relinquish such a preferred status? Why would suppliers to FPI
want to give up that kind of preferred status?
However, from a public policy standpoint, FPI’s mandatory
source status is simply indefensible. By eliminating FPI’s mandatory source status, H.R. 1829 merely provides access to those federal business opportunities for all, not just those who are FPI suppliers.
FPI’s current suppliers will be free to win government business
indirectly as a supplier to FPI, or they may choose to sell directly,
something which many of them already do. As is the nature of the
marketplace, business will be won based on their ability to best
meet the federal agency’s needs or, more accurately, the taxpayer’s
needs in terms of quality, delivery and price.
Many FPI suppliers have reputations of highly competitive quality performers. These folks, if they are quality supplier to FPI, can
be quality suppliers, and this bill would allow them to compete for
federal government business directly.
We will not decrease business opportunities available through
purchases by federal agencies. H.R. 1829 eliminates FPI status as
a mandatory source, not FPI’s ability to compete. They are still free
to compete.
There will be dire predictions regarding the impact of H.R. 1829
on FPI. Keep in mind that H.R. 1829 leaves in place a broad array
of competitive advantages enjoyed by FPI. Proponents of H.R. 1829
like to say that the bill levels the playing field for small business.
Many of us would like that kind of level playing field. More aptly,
H.R. 1829 simply allows businesses, small and other than small, to
simply get on the playing field for government contracts through
the elimination of mandatory sources.
Inmate workers of FPI will continue to be paid at wage rates
substantially less than the federal minimum wage prescribed by
the Fair Labor Standards Act. Currently, FPI’s highest wage is
$1.15 per hour, with some being paid as low as 23 cents per hour.
FPI wage rates, against which American firms and American workers are expected to compete, look to me to be modeled after the
wage rates dictated by the Communist Government of China.
Chairman AKIN. Congressman, we are getting a little close on
time. I like that Communist Government of China part. Is that
good, or can you sort of summarize things at this point, do you
think?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. It is awful tough, but let me just say I think
three questions that need to be answered.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your
patience.
First, what can be done to more truly level the playing field
when FPI competes for federal contracts against small business?
For example, why should H.R. 1829 not require that FPI’s bid price

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be adjusted to reflect an inmate labor cost of at least the minimum
wage rate required by the Fair Labor Standards Act.
I would respectfully ask that my constituents’ questions should
be asked today. I would be most interested in the response of the
new director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, who asserts that he
is eager to reform FPI.
Second, why is FPI allowed to bid in a contract competition limited to competition among small businesses. One of the things that
I have in my bill that some of the Members of this Committee have
been critical of my bill on, and you may want to consider an
amendment, but FPI is a business that is over $500 million, yet
they have the authority to compete on small business set asides for
the federal government.
Is that a reasonable position for us to take? That is something
that we are going to take a look at in our bill as it comes to the
floor.
The third question. After America has lost 2.7 million factory
jobs over the last three years, is it defensible for FPI to be activating new factories at 17 new prisons to furnish more products
under its indefensible mandatory source status?
Think about it. This is a manufacturing outfit that is going to
build 17 new factories as identified in their annual report. Such expansions will probably make FPI the fastest growing manufacturing concern in America today. Can any of us think of a company
that is building 17 new plants?
I would request that my full statement be inserted into the
record. Thank you for your patience. If anyone has any questions,
I would be more than willing to take them.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Mr. Hoekstra’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Without objection.
I think before we go straight to questions I would like to offer
our Ranking Member, Ms. Millender-McDonald, if you would like
to have an opening statement?
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Yes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you and the other Chairman, my colleague, the
Ranking Member, and myself for convening such an important
hearing such as this.
I would like to agree with my dear friend and colleague, Mr.
Hoekstra, in saying that we really do need to revisit the minimum
wage of those inmates who are working on the various programs
through FPI. We also need to level the playing field. I think it is
so critical for that.
My statement says just that, Mr. Chairman; that the small businesses are struggling to receive the fair share of federal contracts.
This is not just happening, so we need to look at that. My statement is so involved here I will not read this. I will just submit that
for the record.
I thank you so much for convening this hearing, and I agree already with my colleague and friend, Mr. Hoekstra. He and I, I
know when I first got here, went on Washington Journal together,
so I have had some affinity for him since then to some limited degree.

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Nevertheless, I do agree with him on our revisiting the competitiveness of the mandatory source by which FPI deals, the minimum
wage by which they give to the inmates and the leveling of the
playing field that needs to be. All of those things, in my opinion,
need to be revisited.
Thank you so much.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you for your opening statement.
We have a few minutes to ask some questions of Congressman
Hoekstra. Because of the fact that we have a number of other
guests and will be having to ask questions of them, I would urge
people if you have a burning question please indicate now, and we
will go ahead and allow that questioning.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. They are all burning, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman AKIN. They are all goods ones? I am going to forego
asking questions right now.
Congressman, we will be inviting you to come up and join us
here when we bring the second panel up.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Thank you very much.
Chairman AKIN. Congressman Toomey?
Chairman TOOMEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have a couple of questions for my colleague.
Mr. Hoekstra, you made the point that in fact it is the FPI that
makes decisions rather than the agency about the products that
they will buy, and I am wondering if you could elaborate on that?
What do you mean when you say it is the Federal Prison Industry that makes these decisions rather than the agency? That is my
first question, and then I have another.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. It is very straightforward. If there was a product
or a commodity that is manufactured by Federal Prison Industries,
our federal agencies are required to go to Federal Prison Industries
first as a supplier.
If for whatever reason a federal agency believes that Federal
Prison Industries, the product that is provided by Federal Prison
Industries, does not meet their needs they have to submit a request
to Federal Prison Industries for a waiver that would then enable
them to go to the private sector and do competitive bidding or go
to GSA and go through the bidding process. FPI is the sole determiner as to whether their products meet the agency’s needs or not.
Chairman TOOMEY. Let me follow up with some specifics. If an
agency believes that something that the Federal Prison Industry
manufactures is more expensive to obtain it through Federal Prison
Industry or the quality is not up to the quality that they believe
is available in the private sector or they think it is going to take
longer to get to them than a private competitor could deliver it, are
those criteria sufficient for the agency to say sorry, we are going
elsewhere?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. The agency cannot determine that they will go
elsewhere. They would have to put that in their waiver request.
Federal Prison Industries would then determine whether the
product that they produce meets the quality, price or delivery
schedule that the agency has outlined. Federal Prison Industries
makes that determination, not the buying agency.

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Chairman TOOMEY. So there is such a determination to be made,
but it is made exclusively by the Federal Prison Industry?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. That is correct.
Chairman TOOMEY. Your bill, does it put the Federal Prison Industry out of business?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Our bill removes mandatory—it does a number
of things, but the key component as it affects Federal Prison Industries is that it removes mandatory sourcing.
Federal Prison Industries would be eligible to bid for the products that are procured by federal agencies and as a qualified bidder. You know, if they win the bid they get the business. If they
do not, then it goes somewhere else.
Chairman TOOMEY. And is there anything in your bill that in
any way diminishes the enormous competitive advantage that they
have by virtue of their very low-cost labor?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. No. Well, they might argue, but the things that
they continue to have. We do not address the wage issue. We do
not address the issue that their facilities are provided to them by
the Bureau of Prisons. We do not address the issue that they receive a $20 million interest free line of credit, so most of the advantage, if not all of the advantages, other than mandatory sourcing,
are maintained.
Chairman TOOMEY. Okay.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Will the gentleman yield?
Chairman TOOMEY. I would be happy to yield. I will yield back
the balance of my time.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman AKIN. I would be happy to recognize you.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. I just wanted to mention that Mr.
Hoekstra did mention that there should be some amendments or
there could be amendments, and I propose that one of those
amendments would be minimum wage that I would perhaps submit
to be a part of this because it is important that those who are doing
the service should get better than just a low wage that they are
presently getting to do this service while they are inmates.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. I thank you very much. Like I have said, as we
have gone through the bill that is something that has come up, and
I think the other thing that has come up based on feedback from
the Members of the Small Business Committee is why are we letting a company that is this large bid on small business set asides?
It makes no sense.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Congressman.
Are there additional questions? If not, Congressman, if you
would care to join us?
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Mr. Chairman, might I?
Chairman AKIN. Yes. I am sorry.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Congressman, if I might? I would like to pursue
a little bit of that competitive advantages line of thinking.
You highlighted a couple. I have just written down through your
comments the wage issue certainly being one. Would it be fair to
say another one would be operating overhead because you spoke
about the facilities basically I guess being furnished.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Yes.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Access to capital. What else might there be?

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Mr. HOEKSTRA. Inmate worker benefits. No contribution for social security or unemployment compensation, no employee benefits
paid, factory space furnished by the host prison, equipment is free,
free access to a broad range of equipment that is excess to other
federal agencies.
Utilities are furnished by the host prisons. Taxes. They are exempt from state and federal income state tax, gross receipts tax,
excise tax and state and local sales tax on purchase. Insurance
claims for personal injury or property damage are paid for by the
U.S. Government. Workplace and health safety. They are exempt
for OSHA, EPA and those types of things, and then the access to
capita.
A lot of the things that are a significant cost to your small business you can just cross right off, you know, the expense side of the
ledger for Federal Prison Industries.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. I am not looking at one, but I seem to recall that
pretty well covers the waterfront on my old P&L report on the expense side.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Yes.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Thank you.
In the spirit of full disclosure, Mr. Chairman, I think I ought to
mention that I, too, am a co-sponsor of this legislation.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you. Thank you for your comments.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I do have
lots more answers, but since there are no more questions I will join
you up front.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Thank you.
Chairman AKIN. If I could ask the second panel of witnesses to
please come forward now?
As the panel is being seated, I would just call attention to the
Committee. We are fortunate today to have with us batting in the
first position on our second panel the Honorable Harley Lappin. He
is the chief executive officer of the Federal Prison Industries and
the director of the Bureau of Prisons.
Harley has agreed to stick with us here through the statements
of the different witnesses, and then he is going to take questions
first, but we are going to excuse him when we are done with those
questions. If we keep things moving along, hopefully we will be
able to honor your schedule. We thank you for joining us.
I will do that as an introduction to our first witness, who is again
Harley Lappin. He is the director of the Bureau of Prisons and
chief executive officer of Federal Prison Industries.
Our second witness is—let me make sure I have them in the
right order. No, I do not. I am going to have to be on my toes here.
Okay. Our second lineup is Christopher Fay, and that is Milton Eisenhower Foundation. You are the director of that, if I am not mistaken, Christopher.
Mr. FAY. Yes, one of the directors.
Chairman AKIN. One of the directors. Thank you very much.
Our third is Mr. John Palatiello. Is that correct? U.S. Chamber
of Commerce, Chairman of Procurement & Privatization Council.
Our other two witnesses have already been introduced, Angie
McClure on my right and Rebecca is it Boenigk?

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Ms. BOENIGK. Boenigk.
Chairman AKIN. Boenigk. Okay. Thank you, Rebecca.
What we are going to do is just go ahead and let each of you
make a five minute statement or so, opening statements, and then
we will open things up for questions.
Director, please?
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE HARLEY G. LAPPIN, CHIEF
EXECUTIVE OFFICER, FEDERAL PRISON INDUSTRIES, AND
DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BOARD OF PRISONS

Mr. LAPPIN. Good afternoon, Chairman Akin, Chairman Toomey,
Members of both Subcommittees. I appreciate the opportunity to
appear before you today and discuss Federal Prison Industry. I also
appreciate your willingness to accommodate my schedule, allowing
me to testify and then answer a few questions and then leave.
Thank you very much.
As director of Bureau of Prisons, I also serve as the chief executive officer of Federal Prison Industry. Although I have been in my
current position for less than six months, I have served in the Bureau of Prisons for 18 years in a variety of capacities, including
warden at two institutions and regional director.
I am not involved in the daily operational details of the FPI program, but have firsthand knowledge of the impact this program
has on reducing crime and in making prisons safer to manage and
less expensive to operate. Today, there are more than 172,000 federal inmates. The federal inmate population has increased by more
than 600 percent since 1980, and it is projected to increase to more
than 215,000 by 2010.
The Bureau of Prisons is sensitive to the concerns of the Members of Congress, as well as business and labor representatives,
that any negative impact of the FPI program on the private sector
should be minimized. We do not oppose balanced and practical reform of FPI. Consistent with the Administration’s position, any reform should simultaneously provide federal agencies greater procurement flexibility, increased access by private sector companies
to government purchase and ensure the Attorney General maintains adequate work and opportunities for inmates incarcerated in
federal prisons.
The Bureau has no control over the number of inmates who come
to the prison, their length of stay or the background they bring
with them. We do, however, have influence over their chances of
success upon reintegrated into society. The Bureau of Justice Statistics has reported recently that recidivism among state prison
systems increased over the recent 10-year period. During approximately the same timeframe, the federal prison system recidivism
rate declined.
We know, based on rigorous research, that the positive impact is
due to inmate programs that include work assignments, drug treatment, education, vocational training and others, all of which provide inmates with skills and cognitive abilities to function successfully when they return to their community.
Federal Prison Industry plays an integral role in reducing recidivism. Inmates who work in FPI are 24 percent less likely to commit crimes and 14 percent more likely to be employed for as long

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as 12 years after release as compared to similar inmates who do
not have FPI experience.
The impact of the FPI program is particularly significant because
FPI focuses on employing more serious offenders. In fact, 76 percent of the inmate population workers have been convicted of drug
offenses, weapons and other violent offenses. These inmates are at
higher risk for recidivism because they typically have extensive
and violent backgrounds, poor educational accomplishments and
limited work experience.
FPI is a crime reducing program that is financially self-sustaining and receives no appropriated funds for its operation. Although inmates work for FPI to produce products and perform
services, the real output of the FPI program is inmates who are
more likely to return to society as law abiding taxpayers because
of the improved job skills, training and work experience.
Last year, FPI spent more than a half a billion dollars on purchasing raw materials, supplies, services and equipment from private sector vendors. The amount represents 74 percent of the entire revenue earned by FPI programs, and more than 62 percent
of this money went to small businesses.
Efforts to reform the FPI program in a balanced manner are already underway. We are already working to reduce FPI’s program
reliance on mandatory source, reduce production in office furniture
and textiles and emphasize new areas for inmate jobs. The FPI
board of directors recently adopted several resolutions to ensure
the FPI program does not place an undue burden on private industry and small business.
The collective effect of these and other programs has been a decline in the FPI program sales and earnings. As a result, the FPI
program has had to close or downsize 13 factories and reduce inmate program participation in FPI by about 2,000 inmates. If FPI
is not able to maintain its viability as a correctional program or is
not able to maintain adequate levels of inmate enrollment, there
will be negative ripple effect.
First and foremost, if fewer and fewer inmates develop the fundamental skills of the workplace, recidivism will increase at a substantial cost to taxpayers and victims of crime. Second, there may
be disruption to small businesses that currently depend on FPI program for their continued business success, and, third, opportunities
to provide restitution to victims of crime will decrease
I recognize that this is a complex public policy issue with no easy
answer. I look forward to working with the Administration, Members of the Subcommittee and others to achieve a practical, balanced, cost effective reform of Federal Prison Industry.
Chairman Akin and Chairman Toomey, again I appreciate the
opportunity to testify before you today and look forward to your
questions. Thank you.
[Mr. Lappin’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Director. You hit it exactly within
a few seconds. That is pretty good timing.
We are just going to proceed across with our witnesses. Mr. Fay,
if you would proceed?

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STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER FAY, DIRECTOR, MILTON S.
EISENHOWER FOUNDATION

Mr. FAY. I, too, would like to thank the panel and the Committee
to allow me to testify and thank Chairman Akin and Chairman
Toomey, thank the staff, Joe Hart and Tom Bazos, for inviting me.
This is a very great honor to appear before you.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. And also the Ranking Member.
Mr. FAY. And the Ranking Member. I am sorry.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you.
Mr. FAY. Yes. I come to the subject of Prison Industries from a
slightly different angle. I am now the director of the Milton Eisenhower Foundation, which is a private sector continuation of the
Kerner Commission and Violence Commission started by President
Johnson.
Incidentally, I am going to give you a condensed version of this,
but I would appreciate it if my whole testimony is entered into the
record.
Chairman AKIN. Without objection.
Mr. FAY. Thank you. My work with the Foundation is to replicate
model programs for ex-offenders, and so one of the things I would
like to address before this Committee is the impact Prison Industries has on the ability of the offender when he or she is released
to actually make it on the outside. It is my contention that the design of Prison Industries in the current form does not adequately
prepare the inmate to find employment.
Prior to coming to the Eisenhower Foundation, I ran a program
in New York City for 10 years called Broadway Community, which
worked with homeless people and drug addicts, and for the most
part the people I worked with had come out of prison, federal prisons, and had failed in their efforts to make it on the outside. They
were not able to actually use those skills and find adequate work.
I would like to point out even in the literature that Prison Industries puts out that those rudimentary and fundamental work skills
tend to be things like showing up on time, working under authority, being able to focus on a task. Very important things, but if you
are going to work with a person for a number of years that are incarcerated for a number of years, surely we can get on to more high
level skills. It also points out in the literature that most of the best
work goes to lifers, people who are not going to come out and look
for another job.
In my present work, I am affiliated with the Delancey Street
Foundation, which is probably the world’s most famous and most
successful program for ex-offenders located in San Francisco and
four other facilities around the country.
They actually take the kind of people that he was just describing,
really hard core individuals who are facing in some cases life
terms, and within the average of four years these individuals do
learn multiple life skills, and their record of success with their
graduates is 80 percent. In other words, 80 percent of people who
are hard core felons, hard core drug users, actually develop marketable skills, go on and become productive members of society.
I say that because we know that it can work. There is at least
one outstanding model in this country that demonstrates that you
can train people in work skills so they do not go back to prison.

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I would recommend that any discussion on the subject of Prison Industries, whether how it affects small business or anything else, we
also keep in mind the impact it has on the offender.
In the long run, we will have a much more humane society if we
try and refocus the work of Prison Industries to really train the inmates. That becomes the primary focus rather than the making of
money.
In the end, we will have a lower number of people in prisons,
much less recidivism, and we will all be proud to see that the prisons have really had an impact on the human lives, our own brothers and sisters.
Thank you very much.
[Mr. Fay’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Mr. Palatiello?
STATEMENT OF JOHN PALATIELLO, CHAIRMAN, PROCUREMENT & PRIVATIZATION COUNSEL, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE

Mr. PALATIELLO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, both Chairmen and
Ranking Members of the Subcommittees. I am John Palatiello. I
am executive director of MAPS, a trade association of mapping spatial data and geographic information services firm, and I also chair
the Privatization and Procurement Council of the U.S. Chamber of
Commerce. It is my honor to appear on behalf of the Chamber this
afternoon.
As you know, the Chamber is the world’s largest business federation, representing more than 3,000,000 businesses and organizations. What you may not know is that over 96 percent of the Chamber’s members are small businesses with no more than 100 employees, and 71 percent of our members have 10 or fewer employees.
Reform of Federal Prison Industries has for a number of years
been at the top of the Chambers’ government procurement platform. I commend the Subcommittee for its dedication to this issue
and the interest of holding hearings on FPI competition and its effect on small business.
I will not spend a lot of time on the history of FPI. I think you
all are very familiar with that, and so I will get right to the point.
FPI is a non-competitive monopoly, and, in our view, monopolies
have no place in a free market economy. When you remove competition from the equation, you are left with higher prices, lower
quality of service and lower productivity. Non-market based practices also stifle innovation and reduce the availability of goods and
services, and that is exactly what we have in federal procurement
today because of the presence of Federal Prison Industries.
F.P.I. as a federal program, as a federal agency, puts the government in a role of being the opposing team to small business rather
than being the umpire refereeing disputes among competitors in
the marketplace. If you ask the question is there a level playing
field for small business, the answer is absolutely not.
Today, FPI produces over 300 products and services. In 2002
alone, their sales totaled nearly $700 million, making it the thirtyninth largest federal contractor. It makes it a formidable compet-

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itor to large business and has an even greater advantage over
small business that is virtually insurmountable.
The Small Business Committee has dedicated a great deal of
time in recent months to the loss of jobs in the United States and
the slow growth of jobs in our economy today, both in the manufacturing sector and the services sector, particularly with regard to
the loss of jobs offshore.
Think for a moment of the double whammy that small businesses
face. The competition that we are receiving from low wage jobs offshore and the competition we face right here at home from low
wage, terribly advantaged positions in Federal Prison Industries.
We believe that private firms and small businesses should be allowed to compete fairly and on a level playing field with FPI for
federal contracts, plain and simple, by eliminating the mandate
that government agencies purchase from FPI.
You have already heard about the waiver process that is virtually non-existent. FPI gets to be, and pardon me for mixing my
sports and judicial metaphors, but they get to be judge, jury and
prosecutor. They decide what they sell, when they sell, how much
they sell it for and who they sell it to. The buying agency has no
decision making in the process.
Again, as Mr. Hoekstra indicated, there is a waiver process. The
waiver is granted by FPI. They have to voluntarily agree not to
sell. There is no right of an agency to say FPI does not deliver
what we are looking for and, therefore, we want to go to the open
marketplace. That option is not at the disposal of federal agencies
today.
We also believe that FPI is abusing its statutory authority with
the way it aggressively and I think in a predatory manner enters
a variety of markets, including the services area. FPI is not content
to be a monopoly in sales to the federal government. It now believes it has the authority to sell in the commercial marketplace.
When you look at the list of advantages that Mr. Hoekstra mentioned, and I can go over them as well, it is an extraordinary advantage to allow Prison Industries to sell services in the commercial marketplace. This Congress and this government has spoken
emphatically about prison made products for China, and yet we are
going to condone allowing prison services in the open marketplace
here in the United States? There is no authority for that, but they
have granted that to themselves, again the predatory nature of the
way they operate.
We strongly support Mr. Hoekstra’s bill. We are unmindful of the
need to manage and rehabilitate inmates and the bill strikes a balance by providing new opportunities on where we can use prison
employees. I will be glad to discuss that in more detail under questioning.
Let me make one final point very quickly. We have a coalition
that includes the Chamber of Commerce and the AFL–CIO. We
have AFSCME and NFIB in our coalition supporting this bill. Our
coalition includes not only small businesses that are adversely impacted by unfair competition, but our coalition includes those suppliers that are selling whole products or commodities to FPI, and
we support Mr. Hoekstra’s bill.

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We do not think this would have an adverse impact on those suppliers. We think it would have a positive impact on all businesses
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
[Mr. Palatiello’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you. Thank you for your comments.
We will next go to I think it is Ms. Boenigk.
Ms. BOENIGK. Yes, sir.
STATEMENT OF REBECCA BOENIGK, CEO AND CHAIRPERSON
OF THE BOARD, NEUTRAL POSTURE, INC., BRYAN, TX, ON BEHALF OF WOMEN IMPACTING PUBLIC POLICY (WIPP)

Ms. BOENIGK. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of
the Committee. My name is Rebecca Boenigk. I am the CEO and
chairman of the board of Neutral Posture. We are located in Bryan,
Texas.
I am here today appearing on behalf of Women Impacting Public
Policy, a national bipartisan public policy organization advocating
on behalf of women-owned businesses representing 460,000 members. I am also a member of the Women Presidents Organization
and a member of WBENC, which is the Women Business Enterprise National Council.
Neutral Posture is certified as a woman-owned business. We
were certified by WBENC. The company was founded in 1989 by
my mother, Jaye Congleton, and myself. We have been in business
for 15 years. We have 90 employees at our Texas facility, and we
have another 12 employees at our facility just outside of Toronto
in Cambridge. We opened up a Canadian facility last year.
I want to commend you for holding this meeting. It is very important to us that there is reform in Federal Prison Industries because it is so unfair when we have to go and try and compete with
them. Again, basically because they have a monopoly it is not really competition.
Approximately 25 percent of my business comes from the federal
government. We have had a government schedule contract for over
10 years, and we do manufacture ergonomic chairs and multi-purpose chairs, much more comfortable than the ones you are all sitting in right now.
About 75 percent of our income comes from the Neutral Posture
line, which is the high end, task intensive ergonomic seating line.
The chairs have contoured seats, which help reduce seated pressure. We have an inflatable air lumbar in the back rib. Our chairs
have been proven to reduce injuries and to reduce workers’ comp
costs. There is no other chair that Prison Industries has that can
compete with our high end line of seating.
The State of Washington, for example, used our chairs, and by
using our chairs they reduced their injury rate by 60 percent and
their workers’ comp costs by 90 percent. That is pretty significant.
Those savings cannot be passed on to a lot of the government agencies because the government agencies are required to buy from FPI
instead of giving us the opportunity to help them reduce their injuries and their cost.
Because UNICOR or FPI is our competitor and they do not make
a chair like ours, the chair that they have that is the closest to our
chair, the highest end chair they have, is called the Freedom chair.

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It sells to government agencies around $650. My chair that I offer
has five more adjustments than that chair, and it sells for $536,
so we are over $100 less, and we have a better product that is
available in five days.
Although the government agencies would like to buy from us,
they are told that they cannot. They are told that they have to go
to FPI. Even though we have better price, better quality, a lot of
research to back up our product and great lead times, we still do
not have the opportunity.
We have estimated that over the last 10 years we have lost approximately $10 million in sales because of FPI because of situations where we have gone in and we have been told just up front
that we are not even allowed to compete for the business.
Recently we went into San Francisco. There is a new federal
building going up. Before we could even get our foot in the door,
we were told there would be no waivers granted on that building.
This is before they even knew what we had to offer. It was just
said this is strictly a FPI/UNICOR building. There will be nothing
put in this building that does not come from them.
The other part that really bothers me is that if we have an agency that wants to buy from us, they have to go and get this waiver.
Again, because the waiver comes from FPI, they are few and far
between.
In the last two years, because the industry as a whole has been
down so much, we have not seen one waiver get granted for us in
over two years. That is something that especially when they do not
even have a competitive product for our chair, the fact that they
will not grant a waiver because they do not want to lose any more
business is just completely unacceptable to me.
The Subcommittee should also know that in some cases the
chairs are not manufactured in the prisons at all. They are manufactured in the manufacturing facility of the subcontractor or major
supplier, some of which are competitors of mine. They will send the
chairs to the prisons, and they will have to put a screw here or a
screw there, put them together again, and then they slap their
label on them, and they are sent out.
This has just happened to us because of the State of Washington.
We have held the State of Washington contract for eight years, and
we were told that we would no longer be able to hold the contract
unless we worked with the prisons, so now in order to sell to the
State of Washington we have to make the chairs in Texas, completely assemble them, take them back apart, put them in boxes
and send them to the state prison so that they can then put them
back together, mark them up and sell them back to the state.
This is something that is happening all over the place. My option
was to either work with the prison to do that or to lose the business altogether.
Also, with FPI’s overhead I was just astonished to hear all of the
things that you take into account because as a small business
owner I have to pay all of those things. I mean, my health insurance alone is $600,000 a year just to provide health insurance for
my employees. All of those things that you take into account, that
is a tremendous advantage that they have from a price standpoint.

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When you look at the fact that our chairs are competitively
priced lower and we still have to cover all of those costs on our
own, it is just amazing. I mean, this has got to be an incredibly
profitable group to be able to sell the chairs at the prices that they
sell and still not have any of that overhead that they have to cover.
Chairman AKIN. We are just about out of time here. It is not
really fair for me to ask questions ahead, but do you have any really uncomfortable chairs for Committee Members who ask too many
questions?
Ms. BOENIGK. Sure. I can do that. We can build them uncomfortable, but we do not normally.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Get a lot of them, would you, Mr.
Chairman?
Ms. BOENIGK. I do want to say one more thing.
Chairman AKIN. Sure.
Ms. BOENIGK. We have seen FPI show up in the commercial market recently at two of our biggest trade fairs, and they have come
in with great, fancy literature that just says FPI. Nowhere on there
does it actually say it is Federal Prison Industries. They are trying
to sell into the commercial market now, not just to government
agencies. This is sales that they are trying to make into the commercial market as well.
Again, because of their competitive advantage that would be very
distressing to my company to see that happen.
Thank you very much.
[Ms. Boenigk’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you for your testimony.
Our last witness, but not the least. Ms. McClure?
STATEMENT OF ANGIE MCCLURE, VICE-PRESIDENT,
HABERSHAM METAL PRODUCTS, CORNELIA, GA

Ms. MCCLURE. Thank you, sir. I am a small business. She is a
small business. We do not represent a bunch of other government
things. We are a small business, and we appreciate the Small Business Committee here.
I represent Habersham Metal Products, as Congressman Norwood has just referred to previously, in Cornelia, Georgia, That is
in the North Georgia Mountains. I guess you would never know it
by my accent.
We produce metal doors and frames for the detention industry.
Our work is 95 percent dependent on government contracts. In
1996, the FPI did an impact study before they decided to come and
build doors and frames in our industry. They predicted that they
would only affect my particular business, Habersham Metal, in this
impact study by 6.2 percent.
What the study did not take into account was what the effect
would have on our entire market. Virtually all federal work was
taken away in detention doors and frames. The pool of other work,
which was very limited, became very competitive.
As you can realize, less work means prices drop. FPI has created
such a tight market in our industry that prices have reduced in my
industry by 26 percent since 1996. That hurts. We had 270 employees in 1996. We now have 165. These things have really affected

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Habersham Metal, and it has affected the entire industry for metal
doors and frames.
We are one of the many firms that are struggling to remain viable. I have a list of 627 companies in the State of Georgia alone
that are affected by FPI. This is a list that have 50 or more employees. Taking that calculation, that is 31,350 taxpaying citizens
in the State of Georgia alone that are affected daily by FPI. It is
not just the CVA or the Correctional Vendors Association. There is
only 16 CVA manufacturers in the State of Georgia. You have 627
companies that are affected daily because of FPI.
Let me share with you some examples specifically that happened
at Habersham Metal. We worked for several months on a federal
project in Louisiana. This work would mean three months of work
for our company. When the specification came out, it was strictly
FPI.
The only thing left in the specification and the request for proposal was the more difficult, custom hollow metal work, which the
FPI did not want. They just wanted the easy manufacturing runs
that they can make a lot of money on. That leaves the scrapings
for all of us others. That reduced our workload from three months
to three weeks, and that is 165 people that depend on that work
daily.
The same thing happened to us in Hazelton, West Virginia. Another example was in Butner, North Carolina. The supplier for hollow metal doors and frames in Butner, North Carolina, had the
contract, did the design drawings, submitted the design drawings,
and was in production planning on a half a million dollar contract.
F.P.I. decides well, we want that contract, so they reduced the
supplier’s contract. This supplier is in an impoverished HubZone,
a certified HubZone manufacturer in south Georgia. That hurts.
Half a million dollars is a very big contract to a small company
with only 40 people employed.
Inmates are incarcerated because they committed crimes against
society. Now society is being put at risk by allowing inmates to
hold their containment in their own hands. I mean, for God’s sake.
Let the prisoners build their own doors and frames to hold them
in? That just does not make good sense.
Those who oppose FPI, they do so with well-intended, but misguided, desires to rehabilitate inmates. You know, there are a lot
of other things that the inmates can do. They can build buildings
for Habitat for Humanity, feed the hungry. There are a lot of other
ways that we can rehabilitate inmates instead of taking work from
citizens, taxpaying citizens that are hardworking, law abiding citizens.
That is my testimony, and I implore you for the sake of millions
to reform the FPI. Thanks.
[Ms. McClure’s statement may be found in the appendix.]
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Ms. McClure. I appreciate all of
your testimonies.
I am going to remind the Members of the Committee that we
have made an agreement with Director Lappin that we are going
to direct our questions first of all to him so that we can do that.
I am going to run through the typical order of our people to do the

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questions, and then we will direct questions to the other four members of the second panel.
I am going to just forego my comments for a minute and just go
directly to Ms. Millender-McDonald.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
thank you all so much for being here today. You have enlightened
us with your testimony.
Mr. Lappin, since you do have to leave, and I understand that,
I have several questions. One is what is the percentage of your private sector vendors first? What are your crime producing programs? If you are saying that recidivism has declined, by how
much? What percent?
If you do not have this information now, can you please get it to
my office as to the breakdown per ethnic groups and gender? I need
to know the recidivism reduction or decline, what type of crime producing programs you are doing.
It is true that you have no control of offenders who come into the
institution, but you do have some control as to how they leave the
institution ready for work and hopefully not to be returned again.
How do you do that? What types of programs do you have?
Lastly, you spoke about downsizing 13 factories, and yet we
heard from Mr. Hoekstra that 17 factories are being built. How do
you account for this and account for an increase of $92 million that
you got from fiscal year 2001 I think it is or 2002? Yes, sir? Question.
Mr. LAPPIN. Thank you, ma’am. First of all, let me address the
recidivism issue. I do not have all those statistics here with me, but
we will be able to provide that to you in writing.
We have a variety of crime reducing programs, in our opinion, to
include Federal Prison Industry, residential drug treatment, GED,
vocational training programs, a variety of other community service
projects. I heard mentioned Habitat for Humanity. We do a lot of
that work. We suit all of that to the benefit of the individual participating. We encourage it as much as we can and certainly see
it having an impact.
I do know that our evaluation of recidivism, about 10 years ago
we had about—during a period of about 10 years, which was just
recently completed, our recidivism rate was about 44 percent. We
have reduced it now to about 40 percent in the federal prison system, but the breakdown specifically by category and so on and so
forth I do not have with me at the present time.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. But you will get that to me?
Mr. LAPPIN. We will provide that to you in writing——
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you, sir.
Mr. LAPPIN [continuing]. and for the rest of the Committee Members.
As far as I indicated in my testimony, as a result of some adjustments to some resolutions based on the Federal Prison Industry to
some other legislation, we have felt the impact in a number of our
product areas, especially furniture, and we recognize the need to do
that. Again, we are attempting to shift our product lines away from
those requiring mandatory source.
I think that would be of benefit to the Committee as well. Not
all of our products and services fall under the mandatory source re-

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quirement. We will provide for all of you a list of those products
that fall into mandatory source.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. We do need to know what those
products are.
Mr. LAPPIN. Absolutely. We will list those products that are applicable to mandatory source and those products and services that
are not. We are doing all we can to shift our work, our additional
work towards those products and services that do not fall into mandatory source.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Let me interject something, sir. Do
you now feel that those that are not under the mandatory source
should be competitive then?
Mr. LAPPIN. We actually are not opposed to the elimination of the
mandatory sourcing. It is the speed at which this occurs. Again,
that is something we will have to sort through, but, as I indicated,
we are trying to move ourselves away from relying on those product lines that require mandatory source to those product lines and
services that do not.
We believe we could still employ inmates. Whether or not to the
level we have in the past would be determined by the products and
services available in that area.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. What percentage of these products
are mandatory source?
Mr. LAPPIN. I do not have the specific percent. We can provide
that to you.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you. Mr. Lappin, are you
with me, and I cannot speak for the rest of them, that we have to
see rehabilitation so that these inmates who are not lifers can come
out and be able to fit into this society as upright citizens? Are we
really rehabilitating?
Mr. LAPPIN. We have three primary objectives in the Bureau of
Prisons—protect the public, provide an environment for the staff
and the inmates that is safe, and, third, to provide as many skills
building programs for inmates in our custody to improve their
skills and ability and their success upon release.
We believe that many of the programs we offer, the variety, the
array, is having a significant impact on that. We recognize the difficult public policy dilemma that we are discussing here now for
work for inmates, impact on small business, and I convey to you
again we want to do whatever we can to have less impact on the
small businesses.
We want to open the door so more businesses can certainly compete for products and services, more flexibility for government
agencies, while at the same time still affording inmates the ample
opportunity to work, participate in the UNICOR program, improve
their work in job skills and habits and hopefully be more successful
upon release.
Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Next would be Congressman Toomey.
Chairman TOOMEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have several
questions for Mr. Lappin.
The first one is, as no doubt you are aware, I am glad that you
support the elimination of mandatory source requirements. Of

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course, Congressman Hoekstra’s bill does this gradually, phases
this out over five years. That is my understanding, which strikes
me as longer than I would like to see it take, but in your view is
that not enough time?
Mr. LAPPIN. Well, the Administration really has not taken a position on the legislation. We are still assessing the impact and so on
and so forth.
As I indicated, Federal Prison Industry, the direction the Federal
Prison Industry Board has given us, is directing us away from
those products that require or fall under mandatory source to other
products and services that do not require mandatory source.
Chairman TOOMEY. So you are not willing to say whether or not
you can——.
Mr. LAPPIN. At this point we have not fully assessed the impact.
Again, the Administration has not taken a position in that regard,
but hopefully in the near future.
Chairman TOOMEY. I would hope in the near future. Let me ask
another question. What percentage of Federal Prison Industry employees/workers are either illegal aliens or are serving a life term
without the possibility of parole, if any?
Mr. LAPPIN. Well, let me just talk a little bit about the numbers.
About 172,000 inmates in the Bureau of Prisons. About 28 percent
are illegal aliens. A very small percentage of all the inmates are
serving life sentences.
Our average sentence is about seven to eight years, so inmates
are still serving a significant amount of time, a long enough time
that we need an array of programs. It just cannot all be education,
which is very important, or all vocational training or all work.
It is really important to have a combination of all three because,
as you can imagine, most of these inmates come to us with limited
skills, low literacy rates and so on.
Chairman TOOMEY. Okay. I understand all that. So you are saying 28 percent of all of the total prison population are illegal
aliens?
Mr. LAPPIN. That is correct.
Chairman TOOMEY. All right. Now, would you suggest or would
you say that that would then be reflective of the population that
are participating in the Federal Prison Industry work?
Mr. LAPPIN. No, I would not. We probably have a lower percentage of inmates who are non U.S. citizens working in Federal Prison
Industries.
Chairman TOOMEY. But you still do have some?
Mr. LAPPIN. There may be some. We can provide to you the specific data related to the breakdown of the inmates by citizenship.
Chairman TOOMEY. I would like to know what percentage are,
you know, here illegally and, therefore, do not belong her when
they are paroled or when they are released and belong somewhere
else. Therefore, why are we losing American jobs to train people to
perhaps be productive workers in another country?
Frankly, you know, their rehabilitation is not of great concern of
mine. They did not belong in the first place, and they are not going
to be here when they get out of prison.

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Mr. LAPPIN. A large percentage of this group are housed in low
security, private contract facilities where we do not operate prison
factories.
Chairman TOOMEY. Okay. Another question comes to mind. Approximately what percentage of all the agency waiver requests are
granted by the Federal Prison Industry?
Mr. LAPPIN. Again, I do not have those specifics. We can provide
to you the percentage of waivers we have approved and how that
compares to the number that we have not approved. I would be
more than happy to provide that information.
Chairman TOOMEY. Do you have any vague idea? Is it half?
Mr. LAPPIN. I do not have a clue, and I would hate to tell you
something that I am not that familiar with.
Chairman TOOMEY. I do not mean any disrespect, but it just
seems, you know, whether the overwhelming majority are approved
or whether it is a tiny percentage or somewhere in between, it is
an important question since the Federal Prison Industry, as I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, but it retains exclusive
authority of determining whether or not a waiver will be granted.
It just seems pretty important to have an idea of whether most
are or if they are never granted.
Mr. LAPPIN. My hesitation is the fact that we have made a lot
of changes recently to the waiver process as a result of a resolution
passed by the Federal Prison Industry Board. As a result of that,
you know, we are seeing a different approach to the waiver approval or disapproval process.
I would be more than happy to provide to you as recent numbers
as we have to the entire Committee here in the next few days.
Chairman TOOMEY. Yes. I would appreciate that.
Mr. LAPPIN. Let me go back to the earlier question. They just informed me I forgot. The inmates who are deportable, who are going
to be deported, are not eligible to work at all in FPI.
Chairman TOOMEY. Okay.
Mr. LAPPIN. We will break that down for you as well.
Chairman TOOMEY. All right. Good. My last question, Mr. Chairman, has to do with this question that several of the other panelists raised about Federal Prison Industries sales going into the
commercial marketplace.
First of all, is it your understanding that the authorizing legislation authorizes the Federal Prison Industry to sell directly into the
commercial market and to sell to non-government entities?
Mr. LAPPIN. The existing legislation?
Chairman TOOMEY. Yes.
Mr. LAPPIN. Let me just say that any product or services that we
currently produce we have reviewed by our legal staff, by the legal
staff of the Bureau of Prisons and then reviewed by the Department, and they have provided approved or agreed with us that we
have the authority to go into these areas.
Service is the primary area that we are going into in commercial
areas. Very few in the products. Services we do not see falling
under the mandatory source, and we do commercial services.
Chairman TOOMEY. So it is your understanding that as a general
matter it is legally authorized under current legislation for you to

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compete against the private sector in the private sector for services?
Mr. LAPPIN. Services. Correct.
Chairman TOOMEY. And to some degree for products, but to a
lesser degree?
Mr. LAPPIN. Yes. I can provide you our interpretation of that
along with the supporting documentation.
Chairman AKIN. I think we are about out of time here.
Chairman TOOMEY. I will yield the balance of my time, but just
register that I find that surprising and disappointing and rather
problematic, frankly.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Next, Congressman Udall?
Mr. UDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would
like to put my opening statement in the record.
Chairman AKIN. Yes, without objection.
Mr. UDALL. Mr. Lappin, you said that you tried to minimize the
impact on small business from what your Prison Industries do.
Could you tell us what you do now to lessen the impact on small
business?
Mr. LAPPIN. There are a number of opportunities here. First, before we go into a new product area we advertise. We offer the public to speak before the Federal Prison Industry Board either in person or in writing, as well as in services there is a notification of
sorts.
At any time I would encourage the folks who are here at the
table if they are seeing they are being impacted by us, this happens
frequently where we are contacted by other small businesses. We
are asked to consider how to lessen the impact.
They certainly have the opportunity to contact the Federal Prison Industry chairperson, the CEO of Federal Prison Industries,
through the Committee, however, and we would certainly look into
how to lessen the impact of their competition with Federal Prison
Industry.
Mr. UDALL. Thank you. How many inmates are involved in Prison Industry programs?
Mr. LAPPIN. As of today, we have about 19,500 inmates participating in UNICOR as a training or program initiative.
Let me just say, I think years ago when this legislation was
passed, as they said, back in the 1930s, it was passed. I think it
was implemented as it was intended to be, and I think it has been
implemented, you know, and continues to be implemented as it was
intended to be.
I think what no one expected was about 50 years after it was
passed we saw such a significant growth in the federal prison system and other prison systems as well. In our intent to continue to
train and educate and teach inmates better work skills, Federal
Prison Industry as well continued to grow.
Again, I think that the whole intent here again is a crime reduction program. It has grown significantly, but it has grown only because of the fact that the federal prison population has grown so
significantly over the last 23 years.
Mr. UDALL. Do you believe that in fact by inmates getting involved in your program it does reduce crime in the long term?

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Mr. LAPPIN. We can provide to you the research that we completed. Again, 24 percent less likely to return to prison, 14 percent
more likely to be employed. This is after tracking these individuals
for as long as 12 years after release.
What is a shame in a way is, granted, we employ 19,000 or
20,000 inmates, but the bulk of the inmates, many, many of the inmates, never participate in this program all because we have waiting lists at all the institutions.
We are never able to get all of them into the program for even
a brief period of time before they are released from custody, so we
are still missing a large group of individuals, but recognize that we
are trying to balance the impact, and we are also trying to balance
the growth.
Mr. UDALL. Thank you. I thought I heard two different figures
here on downsizing and building more; that you were downsizing
13 on the one hand and then building 17 more factories. Is that
correct? Could you tell us what is going on there?
Mr. LAPPIN. Sure. As indicated, the original legislation mandates
that we be self-sustaining. To be self-sustaining, we are having to
make adjustments because we are seeing a decrease in the sales
that we have had in the past. To remain self-sustaining, we are
having to do what any other organization would do. We are having
to absorb some of that loss from within the agency.
The growth, on the other hand, is the fact that over the next four
or five years we are going to gain again 25,000 or 30,000 inmates,
and as we add institutions, and I do not disagree with you there.
Again, these are all medium and high security facilities, facilities
where we get the most difficult individuals, the ones that have the
greatest difficulty in their return to the community because they
have longer crime histories.
They have lower literacy rates. They have less skills and abilities, so we really try to focus on employing a majority of the inmates in Federal Prison Industries and having them participate in
this program at our higher security level institutions such as the
mediums and highs, of which these 16 or 17 institutions are.
Mr. UDALL. So the 13 that you are downsizing there at one place
in the system and the 17 that you are building are someplace else?
Mr. LAPPIN. You know, what we have done is in an effort to move
the program away from the mandatory source is identify some of
these other areas where we either compete or the customers are
coming to us, and it is not under mandatory source, to revise a
product or a service.
We have replaced some of those 13 with some of the products
that were intended to go to these 16 or 17 prisons we were going
to bring on line, which we realize is going to be a challenge for us
down the road to be able to find additional services or products to
go into those locations, again products and services that do not
have requirement of mandatory source or follow the mandatory
source requirement and do not have as much of an impact on jobs
of U.S. citizens.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you. Just to recognize once again my own
Subcommittee Chair and thank you so much for joining us.
Our next question comes from Mr. Beauprez.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Mr. Lappin, I formally have been I guess both a customer or a
supplier to Prison Industries back in my home state of Colorado.
I used to be in the cattle business and sold cattle occasionally to
the dairy herd at one of our prisons and also competed because
they were obviously producing milk and meat as well, just as we
were, so I am familiar with it.
I am also familiar I think with the objective as stated, and I
share it, that of reducing recidivism and in getting incarcerated inmates reentered back into society as productive citizens.
I visited at length with the immediate past director of our state
prison system, and he told me, I recall, that education and specifically literacy training was number one for effectiveness in reducing
recidivism at least in the State of Colorado. I would love to have
a comment from you on that.
The percentages have already been probed, and I am going to assume that it does not do a whole lot of good to go there because
you said you are really not prepared to speak to percentages, but
is it correct that there are about 300 different products produced,
as was testified, and about $700 million in annual sales? Is that
roughly correct?
Mr. LAPPIN. I cannot be specific on the number of products. I am
sure it is in that range. Our annual sales is about $678 million
total revenue.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Okay. Around $700 million. All right.
Mr. LAPPIN. $672 million.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Have you given any thought? If you do not know
all the percentages and such, you did testify I think rather clearly
that you are not opposed to eliminating the mandatory sourcing requirement.
What might achieve the stated objective to both get the inmates
educated, as well as trained to reenter society and not create the
problem that we are addressing here today in competing with the
private sector?
It feels to me like the private people have all that overhead and
are paying taxes, and this is in a very real way a tax on top of the
tax that they are already paying.
Mr. LAPPIN. Let me do a couple things. In addition to providing
you the breakdown, let me also provide to all of you what exactly
the appropriations provide. UNICOR/Federal Prison Industries receives no appropriations. We do provide a location for it to conduct
its business.
We will provide to you a breakdown of beyond that what is paid
for by Federal Prison Industry and what is not paid for by Federal
Prison Industry—utilities, that whole breakdown—because I am
not sure it is exactly as it was conveyed.
As far as the role of education, vocational training, work, we see
significant reduction as well by inmates who participate in education. Again, education, vocational training, improved literacy.
Teach them a skill. Those are very, very important components of
the Bureau of Prisons, and we have a variety of programs in that
regard, typically very short-term in nature.
When your average sentence is eight, nine, 10 years, you are not
going to keep them in those types of programs for that long and
make it realistic. The additional realistic work environment is a

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part of that continuum that we believe is important to filling or
trying to meet all the needs that these inmates lack when they
enter the Bureau of Prisons or go to prison in general. That is really the focus.
You know, what I want to say as far as mandatory source is we
are not pursuing products in that area. We believe there is potential for us to rely far less on it, depending on how it was to be
phased out, but our focus is really towards those services, as an example, that are not performed on U.S. soil, that we can bring back
to this country, repatriate, in addition to some services or——.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. Do you have examples? My time is about to run
out.
Mr. LAPPIN. We provide, and let me just give you a couple examples. Again, we will do this in writing to you. Just a second. I have
it right here.
Data entry, some areas in recycling and others that we have
brought back to the U.S., again areas that do not impact. Distribution services, packaging services, equipment rebuilding services are
some of the things that we have repatriated.
As far as services provided in this country, laundry services typically at the military bases, container repair services, printing services and vehicle repair services.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. One last question very quickly. From the description Mr. Hoekstra gave when I asked a question about the competitive advantage/disadvantage, even if we eliminated this mandatory
sourcing would you not be able to still compete rather favorably?
Mr. LAPPIN. I think we are competing very well in those areas
where we currently do not have mandatory source.
Mr. BEAUPREZ. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
I think our next questioner is going to be Congressman Ballance,
if I am not mistaken.
Mr. BALLANCE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am familiar with Prison Industries from my service in the State
of North Carolina. I am not as familiar with the federal project, but
I believe that the theory is appropriate that we would have this
work available, but I do not believe that we ought to have an unfair advantage or compete with private industry.
Now, the first question is why should the Federal Prison Industry have the authority to grant or not grant waivers?
Mr. LAPPIN. I am sorry?
Mr. BALLANCE. Why should you have the authority on the waiver
question?
Mr. LAPPIN. Again, we have made a number of adjustments to
the waivers, and——.
Mr. BALLANCE. But why should you have it? Why not have a
third party deal with that?
Mr. LAPPIN. It is an option that certainly could be considered. Up
to this point, the Federal Prison Industry Board has kept that authority with Federal Prison Industry, but it is certainly something
that I am sure the Federal Prison Industry Board would consider
if you would like us to do that.

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Mr. BALLANCE. Well, I do not think you should have it, but the
other question is I am told do you have sales representatives who
work on commission?
Mr. LAPPIN. We actually do not have a sales force. That is I think
originally why mandatory source was originally designed because
Federal Prison Industry does not employ their own sales force. We
do limited advertising. That that we do is contracted through some
of our partnerships, so we have a very small sales force.
Mr. BALLANCE. We have such limited time. I do not want to be
rude, but our time is very limited. My question goes to the issue
of commission.
Mr. LAPPIN. I do not know how the small sales force we have,
I am not sure exactly how that works. We can certainly provide to
you an overview of who is part of the sales force, whether they are
contract or our own, and we can provide that to you in written
form.
Mr. BALLANCE. The real heart of the question would be whether
or not those people have anything to do with these waivers.
Mr. LAPPIN. I do not believe that they do, but again I am not directly involved in the operational procedures related to the waivers,
to who approves them, who does not. I would be more than happy
to provide that information to you in writing. If you have any further questions in that regard, we can clear it up in that regard.
Mr. BALLANCE. I was not here in 2001, but did you testify down
here in 2001?
Mr. LAPPIN. No, I did not. I have been in this job since April 4.
Mr. BALLANCE. I do not have any further questions.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you, Mr. Ballance.
Next question goes to Mr. McCotter.
Mr. MCCOTTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sorry I was late. I
was in another Committee meeting.
For my own edification just to make sure I am right about this,
Federal Prison Industries takes taxpayers’ money through the prison system to subsidize and then competes against those very taxpayers. Is that pretty much what I think was testified to?
Mr. LAPPIN. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean
by that. Federal Prison Industry is a self-sustaining company or organization within the Bureau of Prisons who does compete for appropriated funds and providing products to other government agencies.
Mr. MCCOTTER. But the overhead is not like the private sector.
I mean, I think I have a sheet here that shows the competitive advantage obtained by Federal Prison Industries, and I do not think
that those are costs incurred by the taxpaying businesses. I think
those are their money being used to provide that subsidy to Federal
Prison Industries, but I can look that up.
It just seems to me a question, because I was reading through
the written statements, and I was fascinated because rehabilitation
seems to be the key here. It seems to me that prisoners rehabilitate
themselves in the end because there is no greater compelling reason to rehabilitate yourself than stay out of prison.
When they do that, why does there necessarily have to be some
type of skill that competes with the private sector? Why is there
not more of a humanitarian bent to it? We spend a lot of money

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on things like AmeriCorps to get people to volunteer to help their
community and to learn compassion for their fellow human beings.
It seems prisoners would need that. I do not understand why that
would not be a better way to go, if you can answer that.
Finally, I am curious. If rehabilitation and productivity in the
outside world is the goal, on page 6 you talk about FPI is going
to ‘‘emphasize new areas for inmate jobs, particularly service jobs
that are moving overseas.’’ Now, part of job training is something
you would hope they would pick up skills from this. Are we also
going to pay to send them overseas to have one of those?
Mr. LAPPIN. Let me back up to the first question I will start
with. We believe that we need to offer inmates opportunities to improve themselves; that it does not happen on their own.
Mr. MCCOTTER. Can I just ask a question on that? I am sorry.
How does a prisoner get into Federal Prison Industries?
Mr. LAPPIN. It is a voluntary request. They go on a waiting list
with everybody else that has requested. They are then interviewed
and accepted after their name comes up to the top of the list.
Mr. MCCOTTER. So you are already starting with some of the,
you know, relative statements, but better, self-motivating prisons
that show a penchant to want to be rehabilitated, which might be
more of a correlation with your 24 percent recidivism rate drop
than the actual program itself.
Mr. LAPPIN. We do not force any inmate to participate in a program. All of the programs in the Bureau of Prisons are voluntary
with the exception of one, and that is all inmates will have a work
assignment. Now, that given work assignment would not be
UNICOR unless they volunteer and ask to work in that capacity.
You are right. We still have a large percentage of inmates in the
federal prison system and other systems as well that resist, that
do not want to change, that do not think they need to change, but
we have a large percentage of them at some point in their incarceration say, you know, the reason I am here is partly my responsibility and at some point say I need to change. Here are some opportunities for me to do so.
That is why there are no mandatory programs other than work,
so in that capacity all of them are inmates who are saying yes, I
want to change.
Mr. MCCOTTER. So then the 24 percent might not be an accurate
number then, really a fair number to compare to the general population that is not like that? It is kind of like the argument about
parochial schools versus public schools in terms of performance.
Mr. LAPPIN. All I can say is I am not a research expert. This
group of people who worked in UNICOR were compared to a like
group of inmates who really the only difference between the two
groups was the fact that one group worked in UNICOR and the
other group did not. We saw that 24 percent fewer of them were
returning to prison.
Mr. MCCOTTER. That is a big difference. I mean, that is a big difference. One group is more motivated to do this and one is not,
which shows that a penchant towards rehabilitation. I mean, I am
just saying it because it is in there. If rehabilitation is your number
one goal, in fairness I want to make sure we have it.

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I believe there is a direct causal relationship between the Federal
Prison Industries and small business being hurt. I would like to see
a direct demonstrable correlation between rehabilitation of people
on the Federal Prison Industries to make the program survive because in the final analysis before I go vote or do whatever I have
to do, Dostoevsky did not write ‘‘Crime and Rehabilitation’’. He did
not. He wrote Crime and Punishment, which is why society does
not become a bunch of vigilantes.
Now when you take people and put them in prison to punish
them and you go ahead and punish taxpayers by helping to put
them out of business through Federal Prison Industries, I wonder
if we do not have a problem.
Mr. LAPPIN. Again, all I can say, sir, is that we have seen significant positive impact from inmates who participate not only in this
program—this is one of the crime reduction programs we offer, as
well as residential drug treatment, education and others. We see
those inmates who participate in those programs being more likely
to succeed upon release from prison.
Chairman AKIN. I appreciate the questions. We are out of time
on that question, Mr. McCotter.
We have several other congressmen that have not had an opportunity to ask questions. I think we have about 35 minutes or so of
voting in front of us. I guess my question is can you hang in there,
take a break and then take the last two questions, or do you feel
that you are going to have to move along?
Mr. LAPPIN. I unfortunately am going to have to move along. I
would be more than happy. Send those questions to me. I would
be more than happy to provide a response to those in writing, or
we can appear again at a future Subcommittee hearing.
Chairman AKIN. I am going to dismiss anybody else on the Committee who needs to scoot. We have a vote coming up and probably
have about 13 minutes or so left.
What I am going to try and do then is I am going to try and let
Ms. Majette ask. Maybe you could get about three minutes or so
in. Congressman Hoekstra, if you want to do a minute or do, but
I will hang in here. We will try and run the last couple.
Mr. UDALL. Mr. Chairman, apparently we submitted, the Committee did, questions. This was before you were there. They have
not been answered the last time around, so we are hoping you will
be a little bit better, Mr. Lappin, than the last group.
Mr. LAPPIN. I am sorry. We will certainly look into that. I was
not aware of that.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Ms. Majette, if you could just go right ahead? Thank you.
Ms. MAJETTE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lappin, it is my understanding that FPI advertises for some
of their product lines, and it is also my understanding that about
two-thirds of the product lines are mandatory source.
I have been handed some material. It says: ‘‘One quality name
frequents more federal offices than any other. UNICOR is your preferred source for exceptional quality products and services.’’ It
shows a picture of a chair, office furniture, coats, some other items
that according to the information I have received that chairs and
office furniture and coats are under that mandatory source.

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My question is why are you spending money to advertise for
things that are already covered under the mandatory source product lines? What kind of money are you spending on this that could
be better spent in other ways?
Mr. LAPPIN. Our advertising in general is rather limited compared to most other agencies or companies of this nature. There are
many——.
Ms. MAJETTE. Do you mean of this nature meaning that already
have the mandatory source protection?
Mr. LAPPIN. We are the only ones that have mandatory source
protection.
Ms. MAJETTE. Well, then why do you need to advertise for thing
that are already covered under the mandatory source protection?
Mr. LAPPIN. You would be surprised at how many people do not
realize that UNICOR produces furniture.
Ms. MAJETTE. But is that not in direct competition to what some
of the other people here have already talked about?
I am sorry. I do not want to pronounce your name incorrectly.
Ms. Boenigk?
Ms. BOENIGK. Ms. Boenigk.
Ms. MAJETTE. Ms. Boenigk, who makes office chairs, she has to
advertise. She has to factor in all of those costs of advertising as
far as the cost of doing business, whereas you are having people
produce these same items for 25 cents an hour to $1.15 an hour,
which is the same kinds of things that we are being criticized for
and we criticize other countries for for having those low wages, not
even getting into the point about how that affects people’s self-esteem if you are talking about trying to rehabilitate them and get
them back into the mainstream.
I need an answer to this question of why you are spending
money and what kind of money you are spending for these kinds
of mandatory source items. If you feel it necessary to do that, then
why should you have that kind of protection?
Mr. LAPPIN. Again, many, many government agencies do not realize that we produce furniture. It is under the mandatory source.
We try to inform them through a variety of ways about what products we offer, and I can provide to you how much we spend on advertising.
Again, this is part of the profit from it is not appropriated funds
that are being spent on the advertising.
Ms. MAJETTE. Well, as a former Judge in state court and having
presided over thousands of criminal cases over the last almost 10
years before I resigned to run for Congress, I know that there are
lots of other things that can be done other than having people
spend their time working at 25 cents an hour to produce materials.
Frankly, I am from the State of Georgia, and I share the witnesses’ concerns. If we are actually using that money——.
Chairman AKIN. We are about running out of time. I am sorry.
I promised that I was going to get over when your three minutes
was up.
Ms. MAJETTE. I would like to get that material, that information
in writing.
Mr. LAPPIN. We will certainly do that.
Ms. MAJETTE. Thank you.

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Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
Congressman Hoekstra?
Mr. HOEKSTRA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman AKIN. You have about a minute or two.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. I thought we were going to get off on a very good
footing when we met before until you said I am not sure it was presented accurately.
Mr. LAPPIN. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. I take great offense at that. Let me ask you a
question. Recidivism in the study that you are talking about is 24
percent, a 24 percent reduction.
What is the reduction in that same study when inmates are put
into vocational and remedial education programs?
Mr. LAPPIN. We have those numbers, sir. I do not know the
exact——.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. How can you not know that number? It is 33 percent. When we put people in vocational education, we give them remedial education, it is 33 percent. When you put them to work to
compete against these folks, it is 24 percent. It is the same thing
that our second witness here said.
You know the 24 percent because you are out there to protect the
business. Our bill, because of Mr. Conyers’ and Mr. Frank’s concern
about educating these people and making them productive when
they get back into society, we have a huge component in there for
vocational training, remedial education, and that is what we are
advocating. That is what this bill advocates.
All you advocate is to put more of them to work, to put more of
these people out of work, and you do not even know the number
that says to really reduce recidivism let us give them vocational
training. Let us give them meaningful work, and let us give them
the basic educational skills that they need. You walk away from
that.
Unbelievable that you keep quoting the 24 percent, 24 percent,
24 percent, say that we do not have our facts right on this, and
then you do not even know that the most effective way to reduce
recidivism is to give these folks vocational training to give them
real skills rather than taking screws in and out of a chair, make
work projects, high labor content.
Chairman AKIN. Congressman, I think we are——.
Mr. HOEKSTRA. My time is up. I do not need any more time. You
have been great. Thank you.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you very much.
Director, I really appreciate your coming in. It was not an easy
kind of panel and all. We also appreciate that you have been in the
job for a fairly short period of time.
I think the whole reason that the program was created years ago
was a good intention. Perhaps it needs to be adjusted and worked
on. I appreciate your saying that you are willing to talk to us about
that. We will look forward to working with you on it.
Mr. LAPPIN. Thank you.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
To the rest of our panel, this happens. We have to do these votes.
We will hopefully see you in about 35 minutes. Thank you.
Mr. LAPPIN. Thank you, sir.

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[Recess.]
Chairman AKIN. The Subcommittee will come to order again. As
you notice, we have somewhat fewer Members here on the Subcommittee at this point. That is no uncommon because of the voting and the many complicated schedules that the Member have.
Now we are at a point where we are going to do some questioning. Each of you made your opening statements. I have a couple
of questions here. I guess maybe the first one, John, I am going to
direct your direction, but if others want to comment on it that
would be fine. Then I have another question of a general nature.
First is what does FPI do to consult with business and groups
in commercial services to ensure that FPI’s actions do not adversely affect U.S. firms and workers? Does FPI have a policy in
which it does impact analysis and take appropriate action regarding its effects on the marketplace?
Mr. PALATIELLO. Mr. Chairman, the answer is they have no policy, and they have no practice or procedure. They take a very literal reading of the law.
During the break I was kind of jesting with Ms. McClure that
as onerous as her company was mentioned and treated in the competitive impact study, she ought to have been at least grateful that
they did a competitive impact study. FPI reads the law as not requiring competitive impact studies on services, and, therefore, they
do not conduct competitive impact studies on services.
Let me share with you our own personal experience from the
standpoint of the mapping association that I am privileged to be
executive director of. When Federal Prison Industries started getting into the mapping and geographic services area, there was no
consultation. There was no public notice. There was no request for
comments.
The market study that they did they hired a consultant to estimate the market. It was all internally so that they could define the
market themselves. There was no outreach to the private sector.
One of the areas where the mapping community suffers from unfair competition is not only from Prison Industries, but even before
their entry, is the fact that historically or until about 10 years ago
a lot of mapping was done in-house by government agencies at the
federal level, state Departments of Transportation and so on.
Our organization has been very aggressive in trying to get government agencies to outsource more of their mapping work. When
Federal Prison Industries entered this field, we went and met with
them. Their response to us was to congratulate us on different
types of outsourcing provisions that we were successful in getting
Congress to pass. They were watching what we were doing and seeing that as a market opportunity.
They actually said to us that prisoners would not adversely impact the private sector because they are not taking any work away
from the private sector. They would be taking work away from government employees, so it would be work that would be contracted
out from the government that they would be taking, not work from
the private market.
We were absolutely incredulous about that rationale and explanation, but that was the extent. It was something that we initiated.
We asked for a meeting with them. That is a long-winded answer,

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but I wanted to give you that anecdotal experience. The answer is
there is no requirement in their eyes, and, therefore, they do none.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you. Anybody else wish to respond to
that question?
Ms. MCCLURE. Yes, sir. Dr. Lappin had referred to allowing Industries to speak to their board of directors about the impact that
they will have on private industries. He just mentioned the impact
on services.
We have used that avenue. Five of our people that are in the
same industry, companies, all five of us, the major players in
the——.
Chairman AKIN. These are the door——.
Ms. MCCLURE. The door industry. Yes, sir. The door and frame
industry.
The major players that were in the impact study actually addressed three different times the board of directors and begged
them not to do that. It did not help. I mean, we have written letters. We have had numerous meetings with the board. That is not
an avenue that will help us.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Anybody else on that question?
[No response.]
Chairman AKIN. Okay. I have one more these are what I call
canned questions. Then I get to just ask a couple of my own here
in just a minute.
If FPI were to sell services in the commercial marketplace, do
you believe there would be a level playing field between small businesses and Prison Industries? If not, what advantages do you feel
Prison Industries would have over small business?
Mr. PALATIELLO. I will start with that. We believe that it would
be an extraordinarily unlevel playing field and that they would
enjoy significant disadvantages.
Let us look at two issues. One is services and products for the
government, and then let us look at commercial. Let me reiterate
briefly what Mr. Hoekstra indicated just to make sure it is on the
record.
They do not have to pay minimum wage. They do not have to pay
any worker benefits like social security, unemployment insurance,
anything of that nature. They either do not calculate overhead or
do not have overhead, or it is subsidized and provided by the Bureau of Prisons and, therefore, by the taxpayer.
Free access to equipment that is determined excess or surplus by
other agencies. They do not pay any taxes, federal, state, local.
They enjoy the sovereign immunity of the government of the
United States, which means they buy no insurance. There is no
performance clause in their contract. If they do not perform, so
what? We do not enjoy that. We have a requirement to perform.
Workplace safety, OSHA, EPA regulations, zoning at the local
level. They are exempt from all of that. Access to capital.
Let us remember, I believe that Mr. Lappin was let us say less
than completely candid when he said they received no appropriated
funds. Every dollar they get in a contract is appropriated funds. It
is money from the Department of Defense. It is money from GSA.
It is money from the Interior Department. It is all appropriated
funds.

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Now, we are splitting hair because there is no direct appropriation to FPI, but all of their sales are from appropriated funds to
other agencies. In addition to that, they have a statutory line of
credit. They can borrow up to $20 million from the U.S. Treasury
at an interest rate of 5.5 percent. I have been to the bank. I have
to borrow money from time to time, lines of credit for my business.
I cannot get those terms.
When you look at all of those in the commercial market, there
would be an extraordinary competitive advantage, the ones I have
just listed, that small business just cannot compete with.
Let me make one other point that I think is important to remember. All of those advantages that I just mentioned and Mr. Hoekstra mentioned, Mr. Hoekstra’s legislation does not touch those.
His legislation does not affect any of those advantages. They would
remain in FPI in terms of their ability to sell within the government.
Mr. Hoekstra’s bill only addresses the issue of access to the market and ability to compete. We believe that in the government market even with all those advantage we can be competitive, but when
you turn that loose in the free market economy I do not think we
can be as competitive, and that is why we are so adamantly opposed to commercial market entry.
Chairman AKIN. It is interesting. I have been Subcommittee
Chair and going to a number of different cities and held some of
these hearings. Some of the hearings that we have talked about we
have been talking about job loss around the country.
You know, my firm belief in answering the question of companies
moving overseas is ultimately you have to change the equation.
You have to make it profitable for businesses to want to stay here.
Actually, this list that you just mentioned would be kind of a
nice place to start if we could cut all of our businesses free from
all of these other different OSHA and sovereign immunity. That
would make the free enterprise world pick up a little bit in this
country, I would think. I think a lot of businesses might even move
back to our country if we could give them the same advantages.
Maybe they have a good thing going here.
Ms. MCCLURE. You can add corporate income tax to that list, too.
Chairman AKIN. I think you mentioned taxes in general. They do
not pay any taxes, right?
Mr. FAY. I would like to add that it is a very captive work force.
Chairman AKIN. It is supposed to be, is it not? Yes.
Mr. FAY. But that is definitely an advantage they have over everyone else.
Chairman AKIN. Right. Good. Anything else on that question?
[No response.]
Chairman AKIN. I have just a couple of others. Let me just ask
you. If you were a legislator and you were working on a bill and
you take a look at the situation the way it is now, what would you
do with FPI? What things would you change right now?
First of all, do you think that the program is even legitimate in
the first place? Second of all, what would you do if you could
change just one thing? What would be the one place where you
would go to make a change?

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I will just come right straight down the line. Everybody gets only
your first choice. You do not get a second. Just the first thing you
would change with FPI.
Mr. FAY. Well, I think that they have contradictory aims and so
I would think that they need to have one philosophy as to what
their objective is.
I think in the beginning, back in the 1930s, there was this idea
that this work was going to be rehabilitative and educational. People would actually get jobs that they could take on the outside. I
think everything that they do should come out of that objective, so
whatever work a person does in prison, if this is to remain afloat,
should be a transferable skill to the outside.
That would mean actually changing the nature of what kind of
work they do. They would not be imitating third world industries.
They would be highly skilled jobs. That would really change the dynamic in terms of having to be competitive.
Chairman AKIN. So you are saying there is a little bit of a difference in mission statements. Currently the way the program is
set up is we are simply trying to make a product that we can put
out in the market. Whether it is competitive or not, we will almost
force it on the government, but the objective is to keep these people
doing something that is productive. You are saying that they would
be——.
Mr. FAY. Yes, but to do something productive is one thing. That
could be make work.
Chairman AKIN. I was ready to finish the sentence, okay?
Mr. FAY. I am sorry.
Chairman AKIN. The second half you are saying would be not
productive, but you want them doing something in prison that is
going to give the highest percentage that they will not end up in
prison again once they get out?
Mr. FAY. Exactly.
Chairman AKIN. And that should be the focus, not whether or
not they are dutifully employed within the prison?
Mr. FAY. Right.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. So you would say you would shift the
focus of what the program is a bit off to one side?
Mr. FAY. Yes.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. That would be your number one thing
you would change?
Mr. FAY. Yes.
Chairman AKIN. Okay.
Mr. FAY. But that would actually alter the whole nature of what
they do right now. That is a big shift.
Chairman AKIN. Yes, when you change the purpose of what it is
set up for. Yes. I understand the subtlety of what you are saying,
I think. Yes. Thank you.
John?
Mr. PALATIELLO. Mr. Chairman, number one, we do support the
objective and the original intent of Federal Prison Industries.
Chairman AKIN. Which was?
Mr. PALATIELLO. Which is to reduce idleness, to contribute to rehabilitation, to help provide skills so that they are marketable

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upon release. Those are admirable goals, and we think they are as
valid today as they were when they were created.
Chairman AKIN. Are you disagreeing with our second witness
that the function was just to keep them busy, as opposed to having
them have marketable skills? It seems like you blurred those two
together a little bit.
Mr. PALATIELLO. I think Mr. Lappin articulated what he thought
their objectives were. He mentioned three. I think all three that he
mentioned are certainly valid.
To me, and we have had hearings on this in the past as well, and
I think this gentleman’s point is a very good one about more of the
rehabilitative, the life skills training, things of that nature probably are much more important. The education, as Mr. Hoekstra,
pointed out, are probably much more important than the job training aspect.
Chairman AKIN. Just keeping them busy, per se? Okay.
Mr. PALATIELLO. Okay.
Chairman AKIN. I did not mean to shortcut you. Go ahead. What
was your point?
Mr. PALATIELLO. With regard to the first part of your question,
the goals and missions of the program we support.
We regard to your second question, my flippant answer would be
the one thing would be to pass Mr. Hoekstra’s bill, but I know
there is a lot in the bill. I would say that the one——.
Chairman AKIN. I understand that.
Mr. PALATIELLO. But I think to get to the heart of the issue is
the one thing if I were in your shoes, in your chair, the one thing
that I would do would be to simply open access to the market and
allow the private sector to compete in government procurement
with all those other advantages, at least open it up and provide
some means by which FPI, like any other entity, has to sink or
swim on the ability to provide a good product or service at a fair
market price and deliver it to the specifications and schedule that
the client or customer is looking for.
Chairman AKIN. That is the main thing that Congressman
Hoekstra’s bill would do, is it not?
Mr. PALATIELLO. That is what we believe. Yes, sir.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. That would be your main thing would be
to basically remove the umbrella and say everybody has to compete
just like everybody else in spite of the fact that FPI has these other
advantages which we have talked about.
Mr. PALATIELLO. Yes, sir.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Fine. Thank you.
Yes? I am sorry.
Ms. BOENIGK. Boenigk.
Chairman AKIN. Boenigk. That is right.
Ms. BOENIGK. It is a tough one. I agree with the mandatory part
of it going away, and I think it may be something that 10 or 12
years or 20 years from now we have to look at again because
maybe it changes things. They do take into account the fact that
they get all of these other things paid for.
If I add up the amount of money that they get for free that I
have to pay for, it makes up about 60 percent of my total cost. The

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rest of my costs are coming in because I have to buy the materials
to build the chairs.
I would be so amazingly profitable that I probably would not be
sitting here. I would have retired by now because I would have
made so much money if I had a 60 percent margin on everything
that I do.
If you look the way prisons used to be, they were self-sufficient.
We had a prison in Brazoria, Texas, that did everything on their
own. They had their own. They grew their own food. They grew
their own cotton to make their own clothes.
That is a great way for you to learn life skills because if you get
out you know how to grow food to feed yourself instead of doing
something that is going to take that business away from us.
Chairman AKIN. So you have one thing to change right now with
a magic wand. What would you do, just basically the same thing;
make it so that the markets are all competitive? Is that what you
are saying, or would you just get rid of FPI entirely?
Ms. BOENIGK. I think if I had a magic wand, yes, I would get rid
of FPI entirely. I do not think that that is a realistic thing to have
happen today. I think we do have to phase it out over time and at
least give the marketplace the opportunity to see if they can survive.
If they cannot survive in our world, then they have to deal with
it just like I have to deal with it. If I do not have a product that
the customer wants, I am going to go out of business. If I lose productivity or efficiency because of that, that is my issue to deal with.
Chairman AKIN. Do you think there is any benefit from what you
understand of FPI providing anything for the prisoners? Do you
think it is providing any kind of an important service at all to inmates or not particularly?
Ms. BOENIGK. I think that when you look at the fact that the
educational side of it is getting a much better return on investment——.
Chairman AKIN. In terms of recidivism, et cetera.
Ms. BOENIGK. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I have to look at every
dollar I spend from a return on investment standpoint. If I can get
a 33 percent return versus a 24 percent return, I am going to
spend my money on the 33 percent. It seems like they should be
doing the same thing.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Thank you, Ms. Boenigk.
Mr. FAY. Could I add one quick thing to that?
Chairman AKIN. Sure.
Mr. FAY. The individuals who are in Prison Industries often are
occupied for 40 hours a week. Therefore, their ability to go do educational programs is reduced, so you often have the choice of going
into Prison Industries or getting that education.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Ms. McClure?
Ms. MCCLURE. You said one thing?
Chairman AKIN. If you had to change one thing.
Ms. MCCLURE. Stop them from building doors and frames really.
Chairman AKIN. That is practical.
Ms. MCCLURE. Well, that is my number one hope. You asked me.
My second choice is just to get rid of the whole thing. I mean,
I liked his idea. Let us educate them. Let them be more functional

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to society. I agree. It has just gotten too big, too out of hand, and
the whole intent is gone.
Chairman AKIN. I think there was originally in their mission
statement the idea that they were supposed to be sensitive to what
they were doing to competition and to private industry. From what
I am hearing, you are saying there is not any of that——.
Ms. MCCLURE. No, sir.
Chairman AKIN.—in the way that it is managed now.
Ms. MCCLURE. No.
Chairman AKIN. Is this all under this Director Lappin? Does he
really have control over this, or are there other people that make
decisions? Do any of you know?
Ms. MCCLURE. We went in front of the board of directors, and
there were like I believe six or seven of those. They basically control.
Chairman AKIN. What is going on?
Ms. MCCLURE. Yes, sir.
Chairman AKIN. Okay. Good. I am just going to do one more
question, and that is if there were a question that somebody on the
panel could ask you and they have not asked you, what would the
question be and then what would your answer be to that question?
This is like trying to write a college application.
Anything we have not covered is what I am saying that I need
to know about?
Ms. BOENIGK. I have a question for you.
Chairman AKIN. Yes?
Ms. BOENIGK. I do not remember when I read the bill if there
was anything in there about the waiver process. Is that something
that even though the mandatory part is going to be lifted, obviously
that is going to be phased out over a number of years, and they
still are going to have some preference in there.
Chairman AKIN. I do not know the details of Congressman
Hoekstra’s bill. This is not an issue that I have been tracking on.
I am a Subcommittee Chair on this Committee, so this is not one,
but I think we may have an answer.
We have an answer I think to your question. The waiver process
is eliminated by the bill.
Ms. BOENIGK. Okay. Thank you.
Chairman AKIN. Okay.
Mr. PALATIELLO. Mr. Chairman, there is one point that I think
needs to go on the record. I have it in my prepared statement, but
I think it is worth highlighting because it was addressed I believe
in some of the colloquy earlier.
Remember, this program was created in 1934 by legislation, so
it is 69 years this year. There is a provision in law that says, enacted in 1934, that it is illegal to engage prison made products in
interstate commerce, and that is what prohibits Federal Prison Industries and in most cases the state prisons from selling products
in the commercial market.
Think about what our economy was like in 1934. We were a
manufacturing based economy. We had just gone through the industrial revolution and just made the transition from an agricultural based economy to a manufacturing based economy.

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The opinion that was mentioned before, and if I can I would like
to subsequently submit it for the record. The opinion that was written under the Clinton Administration said that since Congress was
silent on the issue of services in 1934, it must not be prohibited.
Therefore, Prison Industries can engage in services in the commercial market.
That is an absolutely ludicrous opinion for any attorney to arrive
at. To think that Congress was consciously in 1934 distinguishing
between products and services when we did not yet have a services
based economy is outrageous. That is the opinion upon which they
believe that they have the authority to enter the commercial market.
A few years ago, and my memory is failing me on this, but it was
three or four years ago. It may have been longer since I have been
working on this issue for so long now. They actually put a rule
making in the Federal Register on their ability to go into the commercial market. They sought public comment.
There was such an outcry from the private sector that they really
lacked the authority to do that. They did shut it down. They have
never done anything with rule making, but they are still——.
Chairman AKIN. They are still doing it anyway.
Mr. PALATIELLO. They are doing it anyway.
Chairman AKIN. They are doing it anyway.
Mr. PALATIELLO. Yes, sir.
Chairman AKIN. Proceeding without a rule.
Mr. PALATIELLO. Yes, sir.
Chairman AKIN. Does that make them subject to a lawsuit perhaps?
Mr. PALATIELLO. I believe there has been some litigation. I do not
know. I guess none of us have felt like we wanted to invest the
money——.
Chairman AKIN. Okay.
Mr. PALATIELLO.—in that. We have been trying to work with the
board of directors. We have been trying to work with Mr. Lappin’s
predecessors. We have been trying to work the legislative process.
I guess our strategy has been that perhaps we would have a
more favorable return on investment by pursuing those options
rather than litigating.
Chairman AKIN. Thank you.
I thank you all for your attendance today and for your input. I
also appreciate some of you bringing your congressmen along with
you as well.
Have a good day. The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:58 p.m. the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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