The Beyond the Book Series

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER
THE RACE & CLASS LOGIC OF MASS INCARCERATION
AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

An Inside Look at
America's Growing
Prison Industry
TOPICS DISCUSSED
• Playing the Race Card
In what ways have racism and classism

been used by politicians to help shape
public policy debates and define the
government's priorities?

Prison Guard Brutality
How prevalent are things like sexual

assaults, beatings and racial antagonism in prisons today, and why haven't
they been stopped?

• HIV Behind Bars
What is the condition of health care in
prisons, and how does poor treatment
there affect people on the outside?

Forgotten Slave Labor
If prisoners want to work, and administrators say it aids in rehabilitation,
then what's the problem with bringing
jobs into prisons?

• Today's Banned Books
Why was your book banned in certain
state prisons, and how did you go
about fighting that censorship?

Prisons are a means of social control,
but in more ways than may you think.
Arthur Stamoulis, Common a Michigan prisoner that had ordered
Courage Press: Hi, and welcome to it from us. The mail room at the
another edition of Common Courage prison he was at claimed that the
Press's "Beyond the Book" series. My book incited violence. At that point
name is Arthur Stamoulis, and today I'll the prisoner appealed that claim
be interviewing Paul Wright, one of the through his administrative system of
editors of Prison Legal News, speaking appeals and PLN later appealed the
to us from a Washington state prison. censorship to the Director of the
Today we're going to be talking about Michigan Department of Correcthe issues brought up in the book Paul dons, a fellow named Dan Bolden.
put together with Dan Pens and Daniel At every step of the way the censorBurton-Rose, called The Ceiling of ship was upheld.
America: An Inside Look at the U.S.
Prison Industry. Paul, thanks for being PLN retained Ann Arbor lawyer Dan
Manville to represent us in this long
with us.
suit to get the book removed from
Paul Wright: Thanks for having me, the banned book list. In February
Arthur.
1999, Dan filed a class action suit on
AS: Most of my questions today will be behalf of Prison Legal News, Common
about the issues raised in the book, but I Courage Press and two Michigan
do have one first question about the book prisoners, seeking to lift the ban on
itself. The Ceiling of America was The Ceiling of America. Apparently
banned for a while in Michigan state Michigan prison officials felt that
prisons. Could you tell us a little bit they were not going to be able to
about the ban—why there was one and prove their case, because approxihow it got lifted?
mately five or six weeks after the lawPW: Sure. Basically, Michigan prison suit was filed in federal court in Ann
officials claimed that The Ceiling of Arbor, they decided to settle. The .
America incited violence and riots settlement of the lawsuit included
against staff and as a result, they damages to Prison Legal News and
placed the book on a statewide list of Common Courage Press, removing
banned books. People may have the book from the statewide banned
thought that banned books and book list, and informing Michigan
banned book lists were things of the prisoners that the book was no longer
past, specifically of Nazi Germany in banned and that they could purchase
the 1930s. However, such lists are it from either Common Courage or
alive and well today, and unfortu- Prison Legal News.
nately, The Ceiling of America made it That's kind of a nutshell version of

onto one of those lists in Michigan. the history of the lawsuit. As far as
We
found out about it when Prison the real reason why the book was
•
Common Courage Press, 1999 Legal News sent a copy of the book to banned—which for the record doesn't

An accompaniment to co-editor Paul Wright's The Ceiling of America from Common Courage Press.

2

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

advocate violence or rioting, as that people are crediting the prison immigrants that are living high off
prison officials claim—I believe this expansion with what is in fact simply the hog, as it were. All of these
is part of the overall trend of the last the fallout of having a relatively good notions are pushing a specific political model, which is one of greater
five or ten years by prison officials economy at this time.
hepolitical
repression
and a tearing
t
around the country to restrict
AS: Do you think that rehabilitation is a
flow of information to prisoners.
Thisaway
of the social welfare net.
major goal of today's
prisons?
includes in particular any radical cri- PW: No, I would say that as both a So, that said, as far as actual prison
tiques of the criminal justice system,
h tend
ten to vary across
con ditions , tthey
where people question the state of practical and a political matter, rehaaffairs that leads to one out of every bilitation has pretty much completely the United States, but for the most
150 Americans being locked up dropped off the radar screen of the part, American prisons are violent,
purpose of prisons. I would say the brutal, dehumanizing and overcrowdbehind bars.
purpose of prisons today is virtually ed pits of misery. I don't want to be
AS: The traditional argument in favor entirely that of punishment and overly melodramatic or anything, but
of locking people up, in favor of more human warehousing. that's pretty much the daily routine
prisons, longer sentences and harsher
of American prisons. Some of the
conditions, is that prisons act as deter- AS: There's a strong feeling throughout stuff we describe in the book gives
rents which help reduce crime. In fact, 	
people an inside look of what's going
after the explosion in the number of prison in prisons. We aren't speaking of
Anti-prisoner attitudes sensationalist
oners in the past ten or fifteen years or
examples to traumatize
so, it seems as if today crime rates may
aren't the result of any people with or anything. We lay out
actually be beginning to drop. What crias a matter of fact what a daily reality
natural thinking	
tique do you have of the deterrence arguis.
ment that we so often hear?
process. They come
For one thing, medical care is virtualPW: The deterrence argument doesly nonexistent. Prisoners die from
about from years of	
n't really have much of an effect,
what in every other circumstance
bombardment about	 would be treatable illnesses. There is
because as a practical matter most
people who commit crimes don't
what to think by the	 racism of the most virulent type, that
think they're going to get caught. If
infects the criminal justice system at
mainstream media.
they don't think they're going to get 	
every step of the way, and we have
caught, the punishment is immaterinumerous cases of prison guards and
al, and for a certain number of peo- much of America that prisoners get what employees being members of racist
ple, especially those who commit, say, they deserve. I think that a lot of people hate groups and openly acting on
for example, crimes of passion or for who say stuff like, "Lock 'em up and their beliefs. We have the exploitathose who are mentally ill—and the throw away the key," have very little don of prisoner labor, where prisoners
mentally ill make up anywhere concept of what prison is really like. are forced to work for little or no pay
between fifteen and twenty-five per- Could you describe what daily prison life and even private businesses are
cent of the number of people in is like and how that translates over a exploiting the labor of prisoners. And
prison today—deterrence just isn't a period of years?	
we point out the fact that, as far as
factor. It's just not something people
PW: Yes. One thing I'd like to say the American Constitution goes,
are thinking about or are concerned
though as far as the attitude that prisoners today are literally slaves of
about.
many people have that you describe the state. Slavery wasn't abolished, it
And as far as'why crime rates are is, the reason that they think this was just limited to prisoners.
dropping, I believe that has more to isn't because of a natural conse- These are pretty much the daily realido with the improved economic situ- quence of their thinking process. ty of American prison life. And as far
ation. Numerous studies have shown Rather it is the carefully inculcated
as impact over the years, I think that
there's a direct linkage between crime notion that comes after years of borncommon sense would say that it's a
rate and the economic situation. The bardment about what to think by the
•
bit much to expect to subject people
better the economy is doing, the less media. Many people think that
to this type of conditions for years on
crime there is. One famous study prison is a country club. This is one
end and then have anything positive
shows that for every percentage point of the right-wing myths that's been
to come out of the experience. It usurise in the unemployment rate, a year propagate d , right up there
th
with tthat
h
later it would lead to a five percent of the welfare queen and illegal ally doesn't happen.
AS: You talked a little bit about the
rise in the homicide rate. So I think
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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

3

media and right-wing people, maybe As I said, one of the problems that obvious and open forms of racism by
even mainstream people, trying to push we have is that prisoners are largely American politicians. Pretty much,
a certain view of prisons on the serving as propaganda models to racism is something that permeates
American public at large. Your book divert questions and attention away all levels of the criminal justice sysclaims that with the fall of communism, from the failing of the American tern, as it is employed especially
the U.S. government and corporate social system. People aren't asking against poor people of color. You see
media have largely abandoned what the why the United States doesn't have a its manifestation in obvious and notbook calls "the Soviet boogeyman" and public housing policy, because, of so-obvious ways.
have embraced the boogeyman called course, we do—it's just called prison.
is,
crime. Could you please explain what They're building public housing. One of the most obvious of them
of course,, federal mandatory minio
purpose a "boogeyman" serves and why Prison cells are built for poor populadons, This translates into almost mum sentencing drug laws, in which
they're needed?	
crack cocaine is much more harshly

every area of public policy.

PW: We see this as embodying the punished than possession of similar
fact that the ruling class in t he AS: Do you think that politicians and amounts of powdered cocaine.
United States has largely succeeded the media have used racism and classism Perhaps not coincidentally, poor
in ensuring that poor and working to convince people to be more concerned black people tend to be arrested at a
class people view the other poor and
working class people as the biggest
threat to their existence, and this can
be applied at different levels.

When politicians	
talk about criminals,	
it's basically understood that they're	
talking about poor	
black people.	

lot higher rate of possessing and using
crack cocaine than white people, so
the result is this burden of the enormous mandatory sentences which,
we're talking about ten years in federal prison for possessing five grams of
crack cocaine, falls largely on minority populations.

As I mentioned earlier, working people and poor people are made to
resent people on welfare and poor
immigrant workers, and this also
includes the criminal defendant and
Seeing how this translates into reality
prisoners. And what this does is,
is just a matter of looking at the numrather than leading people to quesbers. In a large number of state prison
tion why it is that they don't have
systems, such as Illinois, Virginia and
health care as a matter of right, why
other states, eighty percent of the
it is that public schools are woefully
prison system consists of blacks, for
inadequate, why they don't have jobs with crime than things with like educa- example. Black men constitute
paying a living wage, their attention tion or health care, which you men- approximately six percent of the popis focused on the myth of the country boned?	
ulation of the United States, but they
club prisoner, for example.
Yes. This goes back to Richard make up approximately fifty percent
PW:
PW
And this also goes to the Nixon's
social
roles,of
1968
campaign the
wheremore
I think than 3,000 prisoners on
his advisors, either death row in America. So, obviously,
too, that prisons play as ait tool
was one
o ofoof
social control. Prisons aren't just Ehrlichman or Haldeman, who said something is at work here. I'm not a
meant to control the one person out that the key to winning the 1968 statistics expert, but I think it's pretty
of every hundred and fifty
who's
inobvious
election
was to
talk about racethat
while statistically it's unlikely
here. The example of the prisoner is not appearing to do so. And one of that this is a random occurrence.
meant to control the other hundred the code words that entered the
AS: Do you think that the prison system
and fifty who aren't in prison and let political lexicon is that when politi- would change dramatically if a large
them know that, yes, this could hap - cians are talking about criminals,
percentage of white, suburban people
pen to you. One of the ways to ensure basically it's widely understood that were in prison—if people involved with
that this is an effective example is to they're talking about poor black peocorporate crimes were prosecuted, for
make sure that the conditions of pris- pie, just as it comes down to when
oners are always worse than the worst they talk about welfare, it's largely
conditions on the outside. And so we assumed they're talking about black
have kind of a symbiotic effect here people.
where, as conditions for poor people
And this is a case where the more
on the,
e outside worsen, so, too, do
le, coded
subtle,
de d rac ism oof tthe last few
conditions for prisoners on the inside
decaes
d has replacedd earlier, more
worsen even further.

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example?

PW: Yes, but that goes to the crux of
the matter of how prisons are used as
tools for social control, and that type
of thought that rich people don't
commit crimes. They do commit
crimes, even violent crimes, but the

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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

should say, returned to prison for
fact is that as a general matter, these and possession.
people do not come toIt's
prison.
Atparole
violations,
it's important to
interesting that the same media
every step of the way, crimes commit- forces that demonize drug use by poor understand that the vast majority,
ted by the wealthy and by corpora- people are willing to forgive Bush. somewhere in the neighborhood of
eighty percent, of all parole violations are met with either decriminal- They usually
usua focus
f
th
that
on the
f
th fact
ization, lax or non-enforcement of possessing and using cocaine is a tions are what are called technical
the laws that exist or the diversion of felony punishable under the federal violations. In other words, the person
these violations into the civil justice laws of this nation and under the hasn't committed any new crimes or
system or the administrative justice laws of the state of Texas, but if criminal acts.
system where they just aren't treated
George Bush did it when he was Instead, they're being returned to
as criminal matters at all. younger, so what? It's done with a prison for violating the terms of
And that's one of the things that wink and a nudge, and gets termed a their parole, and this could include
basically middle-class people would- "youthful indiscretion." In the mean- everything from getting married
n't stand for—this type of aggressive time, thousands upon tens of thou without their parole officer's permislaw enforcement or criminal penal- sands of prisoners languish in state sion, to moving to a different county
ties and sanctions. This is seen in the prisons, over which he has control, or address without notifying their
fact that about thirty years ago mart
parole officer, to being in possession
juana use was largely punished by
of a beer and all kinds of other
prison and jail sentences, but as madthings that would essentially be nonAt any given time,	
juana use by the middle class
crimes or at most trivial offenses.
approximately two	
increased, penalties and punishments
Still in some states like California, a
for it decreased. There's a clear correthird of new prison admissions every
million people are	
lation there in terms of the crimes
year in that state are parole violaimprisoned, but	
that are committed by the wealthy
tors. Most of them are just technical
and middle class resulting in less punparole
violators.
another five to seven	
ishment while those committed by
million are on parole	 AS: Prison officials often claim that conthe poorer class result in harsher puntrol units and control unit prisons are
ishment.
and probation.	
necessary to help crack down on violence
AS: The alleged cocaine use of Texas 	
within prisons. Is this the case, and if
governor George W. Bush has been get- 	
not, why are control units so popular
ling a lot of press recently. And, while for similar youthful indiscretions. among prison administrators?
there are a lot of editorials speaking out Those cases still get termed serious
against the so-called "politics of personal felonies, and no mercy is to be PW: One of the most frequently
,,
destruction, very few are focusing on shown. I think that's the hypocrisy cited lies by prison officials is that
what media critic Norman Solomon calls that's been largely ignored by the cor- control units house what they call
the worst of the worst. And yet,
the "politics of prison construction." porate media.
when
you ask them, "OK, who are
How do you feel about all this?	
AS: Many politicians are arguing that the worst of the worst?", they then
PW: Well, the most obvious thing high rates of recidivism are evidence that have a hard presentina
time t, concrete
here is, as I mentioned earlier, that prison life is getting too easy. What's examples of who exactly is in the
the enforcement of criminal laws is your take on parole violations, repeat control unit. While it sounds ood
gt,
largely a matter of class in this coun- offenses and stuff like that?	
for them to say that control units are
try. George Bush, Jr. currently as governor of Texas presides over the sec - PW: At any given time, approxi- used to house prisoners who have
ond-largest prison system in the mately two million people are impris- attempted to escape, who prey on
oned and jailed, but another five to other prisoners, who assault prisoners
United States. Texas has approxiseven million are on parole and pro- and staff, the reality is that that isn't
mately 140,000 prisoners, and I think
ma
it one of bation. That means they're still under who is in control units.
on a global scal e this makes
the third- or fourth-largest prison sys- state supervision and are literally on a At any given time, approximately six
jai at percent of the nation's almost two
tems in the world, not just in the short leash back to prison orjail
the
whim
or
discretion
of
their
parole
million prisoners are being held in
United States. No question is being
given to the fact that, of those many officer or probation agent. While segregation and control units. They
thousands of Texas prisoners, many of there has been an increase in the are kept in these units for long perithose are in prison for cocaine use number of prisoners, or parolees, I ods of time, where, it's important to
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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

5

emphasize, they are deprived of all Legal News, you're very involved in ruling, Lewis v. Casey, did was to
human contact and sensory stimula- this question. What sort of access do largely reverse the first ruling and say,
prisoners have to legal redress and the "Well, prisons don't really have to
tion.
legal system and information about how provide lawyers or law libraries, just
th typifies a conO
o the
th things that
One of
some means of getting into court, and
the law could work in their favor?	
trol unit is that the criteria for being
the
this includes having someone help
,
placed in one isvery
ve vague. Typically, PW: Yeah, well, that's one of m
most prisoners are placed in control problems. Prisoners' rights of access you fill out the question-and-answer
s
units not for violating any prison dis- to the courts is in pretty bad shape form. That fine.
ciplinary rules, although in some and getting a lot worse. Prisoners The result is that we've already seen
cases they're sent there straight from have never had that much access to a number of states limiting those
court. The purpose of control units is either information or to an ability to prison law libraries that had provided
largely to control agitators and dissi- seek redress in the court, but it's corn- prisoners with court access. Based on
dents within the prison system, as it pounded by the fact that, starting off this, Arizona and Idaho are in the
were. The people who frequently with the get-go, anywhere from sixty process of doing it, California is
populate these control units happen to eighty percent of the prison popu- attempting to do it, and a few other
to be jailhouse lawyers and organizers lation is illiterate or functionally illit- states are going for it. And this has
and prisoners who were respected by
been compounded by the fact that in
other prisoners and have potential
1996, Congress enacted the Prison
leadership roles within the prison
Litigation Reform Act, which, in
population.
addition to making it more difficult
to get relief in court, had the more
AS: What are jailhouse lawyers, and	
Prisoners' rights of	
profound
impact of severely limiting
how exactly do they play into this quesaccess to the courts is the fees that attorneys who take on
tion?	
and win prisoner civil rights cases can
PW: Jailhouse lawyers are prisoners,i n pretty bad shape and get paid. What that's done is made it
usually self-taught, who know how to
virtually impossible for the small, sole
g
isetting
a lot worse.
file briefs and ,pleadings in the court
practitioners who have typically done
system, either challenging their crim
prison litigation to take these cases
final convictions or their conditions
on without going into bankruptcy. So
of confinement. Jailhouse lawyers
the result is, very few lawyers are now
usually aid other prisoners in filing
taking on the run-of-the-mill prison
materials in court.
erate, and then of the prison popula- cases that they used to, even though
tion that is literate, many of those even then it was difficult to get couno how
h
e play
IIn terms of
they
th
pl into the
th
lack
the ability or inclination to be sel to take cases.
system, typically jailhouse lawyers are
able
to file materials on their own This
resented by prison officials because
Tens has been even further cornbehalf
in court.
most prison officials tend to
see any pounded by the fact that also in
type of challenge to conditions of One of the things that has happened 1996 Congress passed restrictive
confinement as something that is that there's been dealt a kind of a funding on the Legal Services
directly challenges their authority. one-two punch by the court and by Corporation. The Legal Services
This also goes into the fact that, for Congress in terms of the ability to Corporation is a nonprofit group
the most part, there is no account- find lawyers or any other means of founded by Congress for the purpose
ability in the American prison sys- getting into court. First off, the of providing legal services for lowtem. Activities by prison officials, Supreme Court issued a ruling in income people. And among the
even if they violate state or federal 1996 called Lewis v. Casey, and what restrictions that Congress put on the
laws, are extremely rarely prosecuted this did is, it made it virtually impose Legal Services Corporation is that
in the court system, and only occa- Bible for prisoners to challenge sys- they can't provide funding to any
sionally is liabili ty found in t he civil temic denial of court access. Another groups that represent prisoners. In
justice system. And to the extent Supreme Court decision twenty years other words, if the group represents
that civil liability does occur, more ago called Bounds v. Smith established a single prisoner, they lose all their
often than not it's been as a result of the principle that prison officials had federal funding. So pretty much the
activities by jailhouse lawyers. Hence to provide prisoners with either a law combination of actions by the
the resentment.
library or attorneys to assure their Supreme Court and Congress has
Prison
court
access rights. What the second basically assured that what was an
AS: Obviously, as an editor of

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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

6

already bad situation is only getting virus and not even know it, and as a that people don't think about.
consequence they don't even seek AS: I want to talk a little bit about the
worse.
treatment.
AS: I was hoping you could talk a little section of the book about work in prison.
bit more about health care in prison, and Then the problem for those prisoners The argument in favor of bringing in
especially about the condition of prison- who are eventually diagnosed with jobs is that they help prepare people for
HIV is compounded by the fact that life outside through training, rehabilitaers who are HIV+.
once they've begun receiving treat- tion and so forth. You also mention in
PW: One of the chapters we have in
met, specifically the protease the book that a lot of prisoners really
The Gelling of America is called merit,
inhibitor treatment, they require a want to take these jobs. The book says
"Dying for Attention,"" and what that
that many are on waiting lists for up to a
does is lay out as rather typical of the strict schedule of taking the prescribed medication and any interrup- year just to get this type of work. So
situation prisoner health care in the
tion to the schedule or delays in what problems do you see with bringing
state of Washington. The state of
receiving those medications every jobs into prisons?
' really
Washingtons
' health care isn't
day results in the virus developing PW: Well, the biggest problem is
any better or worse than in prisons
immunity and drug resistance to the that prisoners are literally slaves of
elsewhere in the country, but rather,
treatment. Frequently this is one of the state, and that as prisoners, we
this is the typical norm, and the typiaren't being adequately compensated
cal norm on this issue is pretty bad.
for our labor. In other words, I don't
In general, prisoners receive very subhave a problem if prisoners are paid
standard health care.
at least a minimum wage and get to
Many of the doctors who provide
Prison labor- is
keep the minimum wage. No problem
the care have had their licenses susessentially creating there. The problem arises when prispended
or are otherwise unlicensed
d
pen
or have been disciplined for every- a Third World labor oners are paid literally pennies an
hour to do the work, or on paper
thing from raping their patients in
they're paid the minimum wage to
model right in the
teir
civ
h
civilian practices to gross
perform labor and then the state
incompetence and neglect in the
heart of America. 	
comes around and takes eighty or
treatment of their patients. That's a
ninety percent of it back under varicommon thing. So unfortunate ly ,
ous guises. That's where the problem
doctors who can't
' practice anywhere
lies.
else find employers in prison systems
around the country that are eager to the problems that even prisoners who One of the things that I see prison
hire them. Not surprisingly, this are getting protease inhibitors in labor doing is essentially creating a
translates into abuses and neglect prison face. Due to mismanagement Third World labor model right in the
and malpractice occurring behind and incompetence by the, prison heart of,Atnerica. One of the canards
prison walls, but this time prisoners medical staff, they aren't getting the here is that proponents of prison
are the victims. So that's a pretty medications in a timely manner, with slave labor claim it prepares prisoners
the result that they do develop drug- for jobs after release and so forth, but
dismal situation.
As far as prisoners with HIV, they resistant strains or treatment-resis- there's a lot of problems with that.
For one thing, many of the prisoners
tant strains of the HIV virus.
wi
a the ssame
face all
a
pro bl e ms with
that are employed in these jobs are
their medical care as
as other prisoners One of the reasons people on the on life without parole. They're never
do. The only difference is that HIV, outside should be concerned about
getting out of prison, so what's the
if not properly treated and managed, this is that most prisoners, including point of developing job skills without
can be fatal a lot quicker in prison those with HIV, are eventually
fair wages there? Secondly, virtually
than it is outside prison. The prob- released back into the community. So
all the jobs that are being done in
lems are a lot more serious with this what we have is prisons actually actprison are low-wage, labor-intensive
disease. One thing that is typical is ing as kind of an incubator for danjobs which are basically only being
prisoners with HIV in prison are fre- gerous new diseases and illnesses.
'
quently diagnosed only within a And this is nothing new. In fact, that done in prison or overseas. So you ve
matter of months before they die. was the role that prisons played back got essentially sweatshops in
American prisons competing with
And that's because very few prisons in the eighteenth, nineteenth and
have mandatory testing. So prison- earlier part of this century. So it's sweatshops in Central America and
ers may be affected with the HIV kind of a historic role, but it's one South Asia.
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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

7

One of the typical examples is gar- due to prison overcrowding, there that's happening in prison.
ment-making. That's one of the aren't a lot of jobs available in the
Its not that prison slave labor is so
things that has caught on in first place. Secondly, of the jobs that great, and the slaves are clamoring to
American prisons. Yet the most obvi- are available, in some states they pay be exploited. It's just that the availous question is, How many prisoners nothing, in other states they pay able choices, either total unemployare going to get out of prison and get minuscule wages.
ment or jobs that pay substantially
a job as a garment-maker and are I'll give you an example. Here in less, are so unattractive. So that's
going to be able to support them- Washington, prisoners who work for kind of, I think, why the slave jobs
selves and their families making gar
the state in for example the prison are so popular.
ments on the outside? You know, it's laundry, the prison kitchen or as janijust not happening. That's one of the tors, we earn $0.42 an hour. Prisoners AS: One of Dan Pen's chapters about
prison labor makes reference to the Coal
problems.
who work for private businesses,, on
Rebellion of 1891 . Could you
The other problem, which people on the other hand, can earn anywhere Creek
briefly explain what that historical event
the outside should be concerned between $5 and $6 an hour. Of was all about and what hopes there is for
about, is that prison slave labor does course, those prisoners will see up to something like that to happen again
put downward pressure on wages and eighty percent of their wages deduct- today, not so much in a physical sense,
jobs outside of prison. What happens
but more in its spirit of solidarity ?
is, every job that comes to the prison
PW: Well, historically prison slave
has essentially been taken from the
labor has been kind of in the crux of
free-world community. It comes
American
history. The nation was
F
down tothe
te point orom
of businesses.
b
In most states, private
literally
founded
on penal servitude,
a business perspective, why should
businesses
renting
which
later
spun
off into chattel
business owners pay a worker on the
slavery.
So
one
of
the things that
outside, say ten dollars an hour, when
out prison labor is the
happened after the Civil War was
they can pay a prisoner fifty cents an
ep itom e of we
welfa re
that the Thirteenth Amendment
hour for the same work and on top of
was enacted. What the Thirteenth
that not have to offer any type of
capitalism.
Amendment did was ban slavery,
benefits, not have to pay unemployexcept when the person had been
ment compensation, not have to pay
convicted
of a crime. So this led to
worker's benefit insurance, not have
essentially
the creation of a new
to offer medical or health insurance
or even offer vacations or sick days ed from their take-home pay, and it slave class. Many of them had
off?
may only be $1 or $1.50 an hour. But recently been black slaves and just
the net result is that the choice pris- were imprisoned and enslaved
One of the other advantages is in oners have is between the job that again.
th
most states , businesses — this is the
pays a take-home salary of, say, $1.50 The dominant form of prison in the
epitome of welfare capitalism—busian hour versus tthe jo b that pays a late nineteenth century and the early
nesses are getting free rent, they're
h
take-home
kesa
salary off $0.42
$0. an hour.
part of this century was what was
getting industrial space for free. They
And in this sense, this is what I mean called the convict leasing system.
aren'tt paying utilities. A lot of their
when I say the state has created a sort Under this system, prisons literally
auxiliary costs are being picked up by
r World labor
bor mo de l in the leased their prisoners out to private
Third
the state. So the only people who are
United
d
Sta
States.
benefitting from this are the business businesses, who could then exploit
owners. I don't believe that the pub- It's like the maquiladoras that you can the labor of prisoners, usually under
lic in the form of the taxpayer is ben- go to, these sweatshops in Mexico or very harsh, brutal conditions, for
efitting in terms of receiving any tan- South America where you have ten- their own profit-making purposes.
gible benefits, and I don't believe the year-old girls working on sewing In Tennessee, the form this took was
prisoners are benefitting from this machines. They're being paid $5 a that prisoners were used for both coal
arrangement, either. However, it does day, and all the girls are very happy mining as well as to quarry granite
remain popular with most prisoners.
to be there and they think that $5 a and stone. Miners in Tennessee
day is great. Why is it great? Because became pretty upset over this
AS: Why is that?
the alternative is not having a job at because, as I mentioned earlier, they
PW: This goes back to the Third all or having a job that pays, say, $1 a used the prison slave labor to exert
World labor model. Inside prisons, day. And that's the exact same thing downward pressure on the wages of
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8

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

free people. That's exactly what was to the military industrial complex of just the criminal justice issues that
are affected by this.
happening there. So the miners, in a the United States.
fit of outrage, burned down the
One of the things that seems to mark AS: It seems to me that the only prisonprison stockade and freed the prison the liberal left in this country is the ers we on the left often hear about are
ers. And I think they did it twice, in willingness to support political pris- Mumia Abu-Jamal and perhaps Leonard
fact; they didn't just do it once. They oners in other countries, yet not to Peltier. What do you think people on the
did it twice in the space of two years support political prisoners in this outside should be doing to help prisoners
in the 1890s.
country. The result is that while in general and then, sort of dividing that.
I think that back then there was a lot South Africa's apartheid regime has question, what do you think about the
more awareness and solidarity among fallen and all the political prisoners notion that political prisoners deserve
organized labor than there is now. In held by the apartheid regime for try- more support?
terms of something like the Coal ing to destroy it have been released, PW: I'll answer that in stages. As far
Creek Rebellion happening now, I in this country Ray Luc Lavasseur as what can be done to help prisonthink that it's unlikely largely and his co-defendants Tom Manning, ers, I don't look at it like that. I see
because organized labor in this coup- Jaan Laaman and Richard Williams that as kind of a social worker-type
try is pretty much AWOL from the are still in prison and languishing question. That's kind of like being in
class struggle business, which is why
Germany in 1943 and saying, "Well,
it is faced with declining membership
what can we do to make life nicer for
and a diminished political influence.
prisoners
in Auschwitz?" I think
Why does the United
So while we're seeing an increase in
that's kind of asking the wrong questhe number of businesses employing States lock up one out
tion.
prison slave labor—and there's curof every one hundred
I think we need to get down to the
rently legislation pending in
roots
of the matter, which is, Why
Congress which would dramatically
fifty of its citizens?
does
the
United States have a policy
increase the exploitation of prisoner
That
is
way
out
of
of incarceration where one out of
slave labor by private businesses—
organized labor doesn't seem to show
whack with the rest of every hundred and fifty citizens is
locked up? The United States is far
much inclination to get involved on
the
world.
out
of whack with the rest of the
this issue in any meaningful sense.
wor in terms of both the huge numworld
AS: Raymond Luc Lavasseur has a cou- 	
ber of people it incarcerates, as well
ple of chapters in your book which talk
there with no hope of release in the as the length of time it incarcerates
about how prisoners have been met with
foreseeable
future for their similar them. That's something that needs to
of
in	difference an	
and even	 hostility	 by	 most
actions
against
the apartheid regime. be exposed and dealt with. Until it is,
lleft.
e
ta first
f
Could
lib
C
ou you talk
the liberal
This
has
been
met largely with I think everything else is largely irrelwho
is because, I
R Lavasseur
aabout
	b
w
h Ray
silence and indifference by the liberal evant. That's like saying the prison
hi	
even
	
d
b	
left in the United States. That's at camps in Auschwitz have a really
name, and then discuss whether or not
great band. That may be so, but it
the political
prisoner
level.
e ' right?
you think hhe's
ignores the underlying policy issues.
PW: I think Ray knows what he's As far as the liberal and the left
response to. the issue of crime, this is I think that's the key question—the
talking about, because for one thing,
an issue that has been largely domi- fact that the United States has
he is a political prisoner. The United
nated and shaped by the right-wing embarked on what criminologist
approximate ly
States currently holds
150 to 200 political prisoners. And ideologues and the corporate media, Elliott Curry called "the most thorpretty much. A left response to the oughly implemented social experiby political prisoners, I mean people
issue of crime has been largely absent. ment in its history," which is mass
who are in prison because of their
But then, I think this is also a thing incarceration. That's what needs to
acts against the Unite d States corpofound
in all sectors of public policy. be dealt with. So on the one hand I
rate and military industrial complex.
Radical
critiques of criminal justice think that's the main thing, and peomemb of the
Ray was a member
th U nite d
policy
are
sorely lacking, but then so pie can probably deal with that.
Freedom Front, which was a group
are radical critiques of economic That's the most important thing. At
e
that bbetween
the 1970 s and
an mid- organization, health care provision, a smaller level part of the problem is
1980s carried out a series of bombings
schooling and other issues. Those are that prison officials aren't accountand other attacks on everything from
also sorely lacking, too. So it's not able to pretty much anyone with
the apartheid
eid regime of South Africa
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PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

9

regards to what happens in prison. individual prisoner, in both Leonard ware and systems, have just been
But then, the bigger question there is Peltier's case and Mumia's case, switched over for prison and policing.
again that prisons function largely as which puts them in kind of a differ- We see this in everything from body
they are meant to, so admistrator ent category, I think, than political armor to, as the Pentagon loves to
accountability remains, as I say, a prisoners such as Ray Lavasseur, who call it, "less-than-lethal weaponry."
were members of the United Freedom This is everything from pepper spray
smaller issue.
Front or prisoners like Albert to shock batons to incapacitating
As far as the whole issue of political
Washington or Sundiata Acoli, who foam and similar stuff.
prisoners, I think a large part of the
were members of the Black
I think it's also a matter of simp le
reason that people in this country are
Liberation Army. They're kind of in a
uncomfortable about suppo
supporting different category. And it seems that economics that the companies that
were drinking at the military induspolitical prisoners in the United as far as the American left is con
States as opposed to, say, in Central cerned, they'd just as soon ignore the trial complex trough are also the
p
America or elsewhere—I mean,, it other political prisoners and ensure com anies
that are best situated due
to
their
large size and the product
almost seems a given that the farther that they pretty much remain buried
away a political prisoner is the more in the concrete tomb known as the lines they already have to make the
switchover into civilian law enforcelikely he is to get support from
ment
needs, whether it's prisons or
Americans—and I think that comes
police
and jails. That's at the one
down to having to confront hard
level
in
terms of the hardware and
issues of dealing with the politics of
The Wall Street
resistance. Most of the political pris-stuff like that.
financial firms that
oners in the United States today
Less commonly seen is the fact that
were activists and still are activists
the Wall Street financial firms that
bankrolled the
who actively opposed imperialism,
bankrolled the Cold War are also
Cold War are now
who actively imposed the colonizanow bankrolling the building of the
tion of Puerto Rico and the oppresAmerican prisons. These are the ones
also bankrolling
sion of black people in this country.
that issue the bonds that make pristhe building of
Many of them were members of
ons. They are also the ones that are
armed groups which actively resisted
funding the private prison industry
American prisons.
the racist and imperialist policies of
and providing the capital for that. So
it's pretty much the same old players
the United States government. And I
from the Cold War business era.
just think it gets down to the basic American prison system.
They're just revamped and just doing
point that most Americans are
AS: The introduction to the Ceiling
business in the prison system, too.
uncomfortable dealing with the fact
section on prison profiteering makes the
that there are people who have gone
claim that many of the companies AS: The one problem with private prisbeyondd marching
marc
around in circ l es involved with the prison industrial com- ons that seems to have gotten at least
with signs protesting the policies. plex are all old players from the military some media attention in the last year or
They actually took steps beyond that industrial complex. Could you explain a so has been the high number of escapes
in the form of bombings or bank rob little bit about the connections between from private prisons.
beries, stuff like that, to protest busi- the two?
PW: Yes, that's one that's pretty
ness as usual and change things for
One
of
the
things
that's
hapmuch
the only thing that really seems
PW:
the better that way.
pened is that as the Cold War wound to concern the corporate media and
It's interesting you mentioned that it down, it wasn't just the propaganda politicians.
seems that the only prisoners, the machine that needed a makeover and
What are some of the other probonly political prisoners,
getAS:
7
a shift to a new who
enemy. This
also hap- terns
with privatized prisons that people
political support in the United States pened in the corporate military sector
should
know about?
are Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu- as the American military limited its
Jamal. It is perhaps no coincidence g rowth and funding. The U.S. gov- PW: Pretty much the problems with
0
that these are prisoners who claim ernment has actually spent a billion privatized prisons are the problems
they are innocent of the charges they dollars in, as they call it, "civilianiz- with prisons in general. They've been
were convicted of They don't claim ing" military weapons. So what's hap- characterized by mismanagement,
responsibility for those actions. And pened is that, what was previously a corruption, brutality and high levels
in both cases, these were or would lot of military equipment and hard- of violence. That's not to say that the
have been acts of self-defense by the state prisons are any better or any difCOMMON COURAGE PRESS •

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10

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

ferent. The difference is that when it better. Rehabilitation in this country the common thread here? So anyway
happens in a state- or government- at best was paid a little bit of lip ser- on the one hand you have that.
run prison, no one makes any profit vice in the 1970s, but it's never really
As far as something like sexual
off of it, whereas in private prisons taken off or been given any serious
assault, that's very common, especialthe company that owns the prison financial and political commitment.
I sexual assault on women prisoners
has a financial incentive to cut cor- And the state bureaucracies also have
Y
by staff. It's probably not much of an
ners and ensure that, well, they have a vested interest in ensuring that
an incentive to cut corners. I won't there's a high prisoner recidivism rate exaggeration to say that it seems
a lmost as if prison employees see havsay they have an incentive that because, again, for them, more pristhings don't run smoothly. They do oners translates into more perks and ing sex with female prisoners as part
of their job description; it's that wideewant things to run smoothly. But this bigger bureaucratic kingdom.
spread. This is despite litigation and
they have a financial incentive to cut AS: The Ceiling of America states
corners and in turn that leads to a that "active racism, brutality, corruption token attempts at reform and so on,
greater likelihood that mayhem in and other criminal misbehaviors are an an ongoing problem.
the form of escapes will occur, which integral part of any prison system." Then the other problem is sexual
seems to be the big concern for the How prevalent are things like sexual assault of prisoners by other prisoners.
non-prison community. And of
And that's also a big problem, especourse there is the stuff that concerns
cially in maximum security prisons
the prison community, which
and one that pretty much no one's
includes inadequate medical care and
even trying to address. I'm also a
inadequate safety and security within
board member of a group called Stop
the prison perimeters and stuff like
California prison
Prisoner Rape, and one of the agenthat. The corner-cutting makes that
that they have is namely halting
officials in particular das
almost a certainty.
the practice. There just isn't a lot of
play the race card like attention paid to it.
AS: Your book seemed to make the
argument that private prisons even have	
a financial incentive to stop rehabilita-	
Lion in order to make sure that people 	
stay imprisoned. Do you think that's	

a finely tuned violin.

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And this comes back to the common
thread of, OK, what role does racism
and what role does sexual assault play
in the prison system? I would say that
true?
it plays an integral role. One of the
PW: To an extent it is in the sense assaults, beatings and racial antagonism things that you've got is, if you've got
oresthat prisoners are seen as a commodi - in prisons today, and what sort of pur- a. system of institutionalized pp
sion
and
one
in
which
the
niceties
of
ty and as a commodity the private poses do they serve for prison officials?
the bourgeois state have been corn prison
a financia l incentive —
ell, as to how common it all pletely dispensed with, where brute,
has , to
use an analogy,
com- PW: Well,
well, I guess,
l
is, it's fairly common. In The Ceiling naked force is what rules, there's very
hote
parethe
e private prison to a hotel.
of
we givee several examples little in the way of velvet lining to
A
o o America
h the incenti ve of
Th hotel
The
h
owner has
of
organized
racism by prison staff. this iron fist, and that's one of the
seeing that every room is filled as freprison
owner.
The
private
prison
And
by
that,
I'm not talking about things that prisoners have to deal
quently as possible. So, too, the priArchie Bunker-type couch bigots. with on a daily basis. So racism serves
vate
This
is a '
case where we're talking to divide the prisoners.
owner wants to see that every bed in
his prison is filled. One way to do about members of the Ku Klux Klan, And there's further conditions. For
similar
that, especially if you have a declin- the America n Nazi Party aand simi
people
are example, I would say California
extremist
groups.
These
ing intake rate of new prisoners, is
actively employed in prison systems prison officials in particular play the
ensure that your old customers come
across
s the country. In the book as race card like a finely tuned violin.
back. The customers in this case
California prisoners
are divided into
P
iv
well
wg
e as in our ma azine we ggive
being prisoners, and the repeat being numerous
examples from around the different ethnic groups, everything
the recidivism rate. So that's where
country where racist prison employ- from Hispanics to blacks and whites
they have a financial incentive.
ees are acting out on their beliefs. It's and Native Americans and Asians,
But I don't entirely put the fault not
of• isolated to one state or one area. and then, within each racial group
this with private prisons, because, It's
t s literally across the country. You they're further divided even more,
again, it's not like the state- and gov- have to ask yourself, you know, what's where, for example among Hispanic
ernment-run prisons are doing any prisoners, there's divisions between

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

northern California Mexican prisoners, southern California Mexican
prisoners and Mexican prisoners
actually from Mexico. And while
everyone's squabbling among themselves, prison officials have largely
free rein.
The racist cast and the racist practices of the administration divide
prisoners and allow prison officials to
have their way with us. Another use
of sexual assault that's pretty much a
tool of literally terrorism, and that's
one of the things, too. The American
left in this country is quick to
denounce it as such when it's used in
Serbia or Bosnia, but when it's happening in American prisons, and they
could have a bigger impact on things
if they wanted to, it is met with
silence. Sexual assault comes in, as a
tool used in keeping prisoners compliant and submissive to the established order of things.
AS: In April 1999, an appeals court
ruled that a prison guard, Edward

Nazis—and I don't use the term
loosely, I'm talking about card-carrying members of the National
Socialist White People's Party that
are recruiting other members, other
prison employees, to their group.
They're more intent on keeping them
employed than they are about doing
anything else. Their response is to
attempt to censor the publication
that exposes their hiring and employment practices without changing
their hiring practices. So I think it
gets to the point where you can give
prison officials the benefit of the
doubt and say, "Well, you know,

The racist practices of
the administration
divide prisoners and
allow prison officials to
have their way with us.

Kuhnel, couldn't be fired from his job
just because he flew a Nazi flag from his
home. It would seem to a lot of people
on the outside that, even if allowed to
keep his job, a person like that would be
ostracized by other prison officials and so
forth. Do you think that's the case?

•

•

maybe it's just a few bad apples," but
then when it gets to the point where
you see it at a systemic and institutional level across the countryPW: No, it's not the case. In fact, Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members
people like that thrive in a prison and other assorted racists and white
environment. The May 1999 issue of supremacists are on the payroll and
Prison Legal News had an extensive doing very well—then you have to
exposé on the number of Washington start to question, well, maybe this is
" prison guards that are currently more than just benign indifference. I
employed and are members of the Ku think that's the case.
Klux Klan and neo-Nazi groups. And AS: There's a large section towards the
despite having a proven track record end of your book about things prisoners
of threatening and harassing not just are doing to improve their conditions.
the prisoners, but other staff members Your book claims that most prisoner
who are minorities, not only do they demands before things like strikes and
keep their employment, they seem to even rebellions tend to be very reasondo very well in the DOC.
able: But if this is the case, why aren't
The Washington Department ppriso
of n officials simply meeting prisoners'
requests?
Corrections response to this issue of
Prison Legal News was to censor the PW: As far as why the reasonable
magazine. It seems that they're more demands of prisoners aren't met by
intent on continuing to employ
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11

prison officials, I think this comes
down to a few simple facts, as I mentioned earlier, that prisons are largely
ruled by brute, naked force, without
much regard to anything else. The
crux of the problem is that I think
most prison officials, not all of them
but probably a majority, simply don't
see prisoners as even being human.
They see us as largely subhuman and
little better than animals. And if you
get to that point, why should you
give a beast anything?
And then, at the level of power and
domination, it comes down to this
thing of, from their perspective they
see it as one of not yielding and not
giving in to any demands, regardless
of how reasonable or common-sensical they may be, simply because that
would subvert their position of domination. And this goes back to what I
meant about prisoners being the
slaves of the state. Literally, we are
slaves in every sense of the world;
legally and politically our status is
one of slavery.
That's the thing of being unable to
negotiate or make any demands or
anything like that—any type of organizing on our behalf is illegal. We're
pretty much given the legal and
political status of mute beasts. That's
kind of what our legal and political
status is. The reality is different in
that, unfortunately, I'd say political
awareness among prisoners is low,
and a lot more could be done. But to
the extent of even a donkey, if you
push a little too hard it will get stubborn and kick the master. So that's
kind of what happens in prison.
AS: When we began this interview, you
spoke a little bit about what some prison
officials' response to your book was. In
Michigan they tried to ban it. They tried
to block people from actually reading it.
What reaction have prisoners had to
your book and to your magazine, Prison

Legal News?
PW: All the prisoners I know that
have read The Ceiling of America have

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12

PERPETUATING CRIME, CONSOLIDATING POWER: AN INTERVIEW WITH PAUL WRIGHT

Our goal in putting out The Ceiling of America isn't just to tell people, "This is
what's going on in prison, and boy, does it suck." Instead, our aim here is to raise
political awareness and let people know not just that things suck, but why they suck.
been enthusiastic about it and have And in general, with Prison Legal benefitting from this state of affairs
really liked it. I haven't gotten any News, we also get a good response and, more importantly, what can we,
negative comments or feedback from from the prisoners who subscribe. essentially the prisoners, do to
any prisoners, actually from any non- We're a small publication. We have a change it and bring about change for
prisoners either, for that matter. In little under 3,000 subscribers in the the better? So, that's what I think
fact, the most common remark I get context of this going to prisoners. But makes it popular among the politicalis, When's the next one coming out? in the larger context I mentioned ly-inclined prisoners and non-prisonearlier, some of the things we deal er activists to get PLN and read The
I take that as a good sign.
with has been a illiteracy rate of sixty
One of the things that contributes
Ceiling of America. I think it's that
to eighty percent, which kind of limo America
A
getting
ge
t
to The Ceiling of
very same factor that makes both the
its how many people will ever subprisonsuch a goodd response among pr
scribe to PLN or will ever get a copy book and our magazine so unpopular
ers is just because—while at a lot of
of The Ceiling of America. And then among prison officials.
levels we aren'tt providing new inforbeyond that, the other big problem AS: Unfortunately, that's all the time
mation, we aren't giving prisoners
we confront is that of political apa- we have. I'd like to end with a quote
th
d
daily
rea lity — I
news , this is their
thy,' which is just as prevalent behind about The Ceiling of America from
think that at one level it's important
one of this country's leading activists and
for prisoners to know that someone bars as it is outside of prison.
educators,
Angela Davis, who said,
is accurately reporting our daily real- One of the things we consider both
ity to the world at large. I think The Ceiling of America and Prison "Burton-Rose, Pens and Wright have
there's some self-affirmation there, Legal News to be are very much tools compiled a powerful collection of essays
in the sense that a prisoner can read of activism. In other words, our goal that eloquently call upon us to consider
this and, for example, he gets to the in putting out The Ceiling of America the human costs of the growing punishsection on the shoddy prison med- and in publishing Prison Legal News ment industry. This is a much-needed
ical care and he can dutifully nod isn't just to tell people, "This is wake-up call to an increasingly incarcerhis head and say, "Right on, this is what's going on in prison, and boy, ated society." Paul, thanks for helping to
exactly what's happening." I think does it suck." Instead, our goal here is
put together such an important book,
that's one of the things that's impor- to raise political awareness and let
and thanks for being with us.
tant in the positive prisoner reaction people know not just that things
suck, but why do they suck, who's PW: Thank you, Arthur.
that we've gotten.
Common Courage Press
PO Box 702
Monroe, ME 04951

Rhonda Brownstein, Senior Staff Attorney at the
Southern Poverty Law Center, on The Ceiling of America:
"This remarkably lucid book not only illuminates the nature of the imprisonment
beast, but exposes the social, political and economic forces responsible for its care."

Daniel Burton-Rose, Dan Pens & Paul Wright's The Ceiling of America
is now available through Common Courage Press and Prison Legal News.