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HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
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House Bill 1469
Private Prisons
Privatization of Prison Services

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House Labor Relations Committee
House Judiciary Committee

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Main Capitol Building
Majority Caucus Room, Room 140
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:00 a.m.

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--oOo-13
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BEFORE:

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Honorable Robert Belfanti, Majority Chairman
Labor Relations Committee
Honorable Ron Buxton
Honorable Eugene DePasquale
Honorable John Galloway
Honorable Marc Gergely
Honorable Neal Goodman
Honorable Michael McGeehan
Honorable John Sabatina
Honorable Tim Seip
Honorable Frank Shimkus
Honorable Ron Waters
Honorable Thomas Caltagirone, Majority Chairman
Judiciary Committee
Honorable Harold James
Honorable Jewel Williams

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BEFORE:

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Honorable
Honorable
Honorable
Honorable
Honorable
Honorable

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(CONT'D)
Scott Boyd
Steven Cappelli
Jim Cox
Will Gabig
Glen Grell
Carl Mantz

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ALSO PRESENT:

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Vicki DeLeo
Majority Executive Director
Labor Relations Committee

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Maryann Eckhart
Majority Administrative Assistant
Labor Relations Committee
Joanne Manganello
Majority Research Analyst
Labor Relations Committee
Bruce Hanson
Minority Executive Director
Labor Relations Committee
Pamela Huss
Minority Administrative Assistant
Labor Relations Committee
John Ryan
Majority Executive Director
Judiciary Committee
David McGlaughlin
Majority Senior Research Analyst
Judiciary Committee
Jetta Hartman
Majority Committee Sec./Leg. Asst.
Judiciary Committee
Michael Fink
Minority Research Analyst
Judiciary Committee

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C O N T E N T S
WITNESSES

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Honorable Neal Goodman.........................
Prime sponsor

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Ann Schwartzman, Director of Policy............
Pennsylvania Prison Society

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Alex Friedman, Associate Editor................
Prison Legal News

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Joan Erney, Deputy Secretary.................... 66
Office of Mental Health & Substance Abuse Services
PA Department of Public Welfare
William Sprenkle, Deputy Sec. of Admin.......... 82
PA Department of Corrections

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Resources for Human Development
Monique Hales-Slaughter....................... 110
Naeemah Solice Nelson, Business Coordinator... 111

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PA State Corrections Officers Association
Roy Pinto, Vice President..................... 117
Percy Poindexter, Vice President.............. 120

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Frank Smith, National Field Organizer........... 127
Private Corrections Institute
AFSCME Council 13
Dave Fillman, Executive Director.............. 162
Darrin Spann, Asst. to Exec. Director......... 162
Nathan Benefield, Dir. of Policy Research....... 169
Commonwealth Foundation

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CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

The hour of

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11:00 has arrived.

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hearing.

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themselves on the panel?

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please introduce yourself for the record and the

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county you represent.

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We would like to start the

And if the members would please introduce
Starting to my left,

REPRESENTATIVE CAPPELLI:

Representative

Steve Cappelli from Lancaster County.
REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Mike McGeehan

from Philadelphia County.
CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Tom

Caltagirone, Berks County.
REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

Scott Boyd,

Lancaster County.
REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Tim Seip.

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represent Berks, Schuylkill counties.

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the Labor Committee.

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CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

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I serve on

And chief

counsel, John Ryan.

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MR. RYAN:

John Ryan.

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CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Just to let the

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members and testifiers know that this is being

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televised live by PCN.

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off with a very dear friend from Schuylkill County,

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Representative Goodman.

And we would like to start

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REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Good morning.

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Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to

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thank you for conducting this hearing and providing

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me the opportunity to speak today before the House

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Labor Committee on the merits of House Bill 1469,

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Private Prison Moratorium and Study Act.

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Currently in the State of Pennsylvania,

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there are 27 state correctional institutions.

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institutions house approximately 40,000 men and

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These

women across the state.
These 27 institutions also serve as a

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productive and valuable employer to many residents

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of the commonwealth.

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Pennsylvanians are employed by the Department of

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Corrections.

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well-trained, highly respected, and protect the

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residents of Pennsylvania from criminals who

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threaten the safety of our communities.

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serve as an important role in the rehabilitation

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process of the prisoners they oversee.

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Statewide, more than 15,000

These state employees are

They also

I, myself, have two correctional

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institutions in the 123rd Legislative District.

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They are SCI Frackville and SCI Mahanoy.

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employ 556, and 438 prison staff, respectively.

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There are currently no state private

They

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prisons in Pennsylvania.

However, private

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facilities do exist in the commonwealth at the

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federal and county level.

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As many of the members of the committee

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know, the General Assembly is also considering the

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construction of as many as four new facilities in

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the not-so-distant future.

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introduced House Bill 1469.

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impose a moratorium on the operation or construction

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of a private prison at the state level and create a

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legislative task force to conduct a comprehensive

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study with regard to private versus public prisons.

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That is why I have
My legislation would

Until that task force has completed its

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investigation, my legislation would impose a

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moratorium on a construction of any state

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private-prison facility within the commonwealth.

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The Pennsylvania Department of

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Corrections has proven it is capable of safely and

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effectively managing the state prison population.

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do, however, have concerns about private prisons

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being considered as an alternative to running state

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facilities.

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that for-profit firms operate prison more

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effectively than state-run facilities; when in

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reality, the estimated savings turn out to be an

Advocates of privatized prisons claim

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exaggeration.
For example, in 1998, a study by the

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United States Attorney General, at the request of

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Congress, found there was no strong evidence to

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support the claim that privately-run facilities are

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more cost-effective.

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most cost comparisons omit the hidden costs

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associated with profit prisons, such as those

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associated with escapes, the procurement process,

In fact, the study found that

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legal contracts, administrative costs, contract

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monitoring, and other overhead costs.

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It is estimated that these additional

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costs could add as much as 10 to 20 percent to the

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total contract.

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The study concluded that there was no

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overall savings to the taxpayers by choosing a

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for-profit prison or over a state-operated system.

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Prisons should be staffed by professional

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correctional personnel dedicated to preserving

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public safety.

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National Council on Crime and Delinquency showed

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that for-profit prisons offered lower wages and

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inadequate benefits to employees who are then asked

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to put their lives on the line every day.

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results in a high employee turnover, poorly trained

Conversely, in 1999, a study by the

This

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employees, understaffed prisons, and then a higher

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rate of assault on staff and inmates than public

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facilities.

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When the judicial system sentences

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individuals to serve time in prison, it is the

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government's responsibility to maintain

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accountability for the humane treatment of its

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inmates.

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The Pennsylvania Department of

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Corrections has proven it is capable of safely and

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effectively managing state prison population.

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concerns regarding privately owned and operated

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prisons are worthy of a thorough investigation so

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that we can protect the integrity of our prisons,

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the safety of our streets, and recognize the value

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of our dedicated correctional employees across the

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state.

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introduced House Bill 1469.

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These

It is with this in mind that I have

Again, I thank the Chairman and the

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members of this committee for this opportunity to

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testify before you today.

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CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you.

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REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

And I would also

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like to join my committee now.

Because I know there

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is a long list of testifiers that are going to cover

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both sides of this issue, and I am very eager to

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hear from both sides.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Certainly.

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There are some additional members that have joined

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the panel, if they would like to introduce

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themselves, starting from Ron Buxton and mentioning

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his --

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REPRESENTATIVE BUXTON:
Dauphin County.

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REPRESENTATIVE GRELL:

REPRESENTATIVE MANTZ:

REPRESENTATIVE GALLOWAY:

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

John Sabatina,

Philadelphia County.

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John Galloway,

Bucks County.

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Carl Mantz, Lehigh

and Berks counties.

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Glen Grell,

Cumberland County.

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Ron Buxton,

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

And our Labor

Chairman Bobbie Belfanti.

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I would like to next move to Ann

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Schwartzman from the Pennsylvania Prison Society.

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Ann?

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

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Chairman.

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everybody attending.

Thank you, Mr.

Thank you, members of the committee, and

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Individual freedom is the most

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fundamental right of the United States citizen.

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It's a foundational element that should never be

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relegated to any private entity.

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responsibility of government that should never be

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consigned to nongovernmental enterprises, especially

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where profits triumph.

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It is the

As an organization that was instrumental

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in the development of the penitentiary system, The

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Pennsylvania Prison Society is opposed to private

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prisons.

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Founded in 1787, the Prison Society is

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the oldest reformed organization in the world.

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began with Ben Franklin and a number of other

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members who were the leaders of their day.

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We

Since that time, we have provided

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programs, we have advocated for a number of

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different situations, we have helped separate men

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and women who were incarcerated, we have helped

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separate juveniles and the mentally ill.

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We have a cadre of volunteers that go

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around the state and work with inmates to try to

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alleviate problems.

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The Prison Society has a long history of
working with government, and we hope that we will be

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able to continue doing that; this is one of the key

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issues that we have worked on over the years.

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The Prison Society has played an active

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role since the mid-'80s when this issue first

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cropped up, when there was a threat of a private

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prison in Armstrong County which actually lead to a

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moratorium on private prisons.

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Cowansville, PA, were surprised when a busload of

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inmates from Washington, D.C., came in the middle of

The residents of

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the night to go into and stay at the 268 Center.

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They were blocked from entering and returned shortly

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thereafter to D.C.

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The moratorium was established shortly

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after that.

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did many of the other individuals in this room.

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During the time of that foiled 268 Center, only a

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handful of private prisons were operating.

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states and some 112,000 inmates are involved in

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private prisons.

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We testified in numerous hearings, as

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In the mid-'90s, the Prison Society

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joined again to caution against private prisons.

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Then Governor Ridge was among the staunchest

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opponents of those institutions.

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we are back again.

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examples of why we should not engage in private

Ten years later,

This time, there are more

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institutions; one nearby, Youngstown, Ohio, is

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perhaps the most instructive.

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The nation's largest private prison

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operator, Corrections Corporation of America, opened

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that facility and faced an outbreak of mayhem and

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murder, finally settling a $1.6 million lawsuit for

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wrongful deaths.

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escapes.

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were:

They had disturbances, they had

An after-action document suggested there

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Inadequate medical care for prisoners;

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Failure to control violence in the

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prisons;

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Substandard conditions that lead to the
uprisings;

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Criminal activity by a number of the
employees;

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Escapes and incorrect releases of the
wrong incarcerated inmates.

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Are these the kind of results that we

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want in our communities?

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no.

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Obviously, the answer is

Issues and complaints about private

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prisons can be found across the country.

In doing

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some research, we found at least seven states that

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have major complaints right now.

Complaints of

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squalid conditions and abuse in the Florida-based

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GEO Group actually resulted in their firing by the

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Texas Youth Commission Officials.

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That happens to be the same corporation

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involved in the Delaware County Prison.

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originally saved the county millions of dollars for

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construction, and originally it seemed like they

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were going to save more millions down the line.

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GEO

Some of that is questionable now, and new

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studies are being done.

The ongoing operation also

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appears to have settled a number of wrongful death

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cases.

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unnatural causes in Delaware County; something that

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looks a little suspicious.

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several lawsuits for over a hundred thousand dollars

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for grave illnesses not diagnosed, for squalid

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conditions, for releasing the wrong inmates.

There are many death cases leading to

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The county has settled

Colorado has at least four private

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prisons.

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programs, security problems, and fiscal woes.

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These have been found to have poor inmate

In 1995, a facility in Rhode Island was

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brought on line with 300 beds.

Unfortunately, the

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beds were not filled; something happened that the

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contract wasn't correctly carried out.

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from Cornell Corrections, the company actually doing

Lobbyists

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and supplying this prison, decided that they needed

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to lobby Justice officials and get some inmates into

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their facility; they had a bottom line to meet.

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They were able to fill that facility with

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232 North Carolina inmates; but Rhode Island did not

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contract for state inmates from North Carolina with

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violent histories, they wanted federal detainees.

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Cornell, oddly enough, is now operating
the Moshannon Valley Correctional Center here in

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Clearfield County.

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middle of October, there were roughly 1,500 federal

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inmates in that facility.

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years to battle the construction to actually have

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that facility on line, there were problems with

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environmental issues and problems deciphering state

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law.

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although some had major questions, but those in

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support are expecting to see huge tax benefits,

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employment opportunities, and other economic

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benefits.

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According to the feds., from the

Even though it took five

Many of the residents were in support,

That jury is still out.
A report from the Institute on Taxation

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and Economic Policy in 2001 stated, and I quote,

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"Given the relatively low wages paid by industry and

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its limited ripple effect on the larger economy,

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subsidizing private prisons may not provide much

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bang for the buck...

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communities have spent a significant amount of money

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to bring these prisons into existence.

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evidence there has been any payoff for them."

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A lot of small, struggling

There's no

That study further states that subsidies

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are often given to private prisons that not only

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construct but operate their facilities.

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study done with just 60 private prisons, there was a

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total tax incentive package of $621 million given to

From a

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those prisons.

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that is given to house the inmates; that is just

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given upfront to carry on.

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And that's not just the daily amount

In Hardin, Montana, Two Rivers Authority

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built a facility, $20 million, a detention facility,

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for 464 inmates.

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whatever that the US Marshal's service would need

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those beds.

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don't need them.

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Wyoming to see if their state inmates as well as

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federal inmates can use those beds.

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the federal detainees that were originally

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discussed.

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They were told or promised or

The US Marshals finally said, no, we
Negotiations are now going on with

They are not

A detention center in Elizabeth, New

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Jersey, in the mid-'90s, experienced an uprising

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when detainees burned the facility to the ground.

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The Department of Justice and Immigration Services

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canceled their contract, meaning the government had

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to step in and pick up the pieces.

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apparently, was inadequately trained officers,

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because they wanted to save costs.

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But the reason,

Other cases suggest medical issues.

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There is one in particular that we have seen where a

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diabetic was denied care.

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was put into solitary confinement.

When he complained, he
When he was

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there, he lost his earned time, he lost his

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community corrections slot.

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around the country for inmates who are grieving

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about problems with private prisons.

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in particular.

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There are suits all

Medical issues

Clearly, solutions to overcrowding and

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tremendous costs associated with corrections and

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criminal justice must be found.

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not the answer.

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cannot fill the role of the government in such

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critical areas.

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Private prisons is

Corporations motivated by profit

The decision to take freedom away is one

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of the most powerful tools a government can utilize.

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It cannot be taken lightly.

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They are part of the system.

And parts of the

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system have been privatized.

We have seen food

Prisons are important.

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service, medical care, halfway houses, treatment

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centers, and even management of facilities going up

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on the block.

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What we haven't seen, though, is the

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state allowing the entire entity to be taken over,

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and that step shouldn't.

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We urge the members of the committees to

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vote for House Bill 1469 to continue and

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re-establish the moratorium, to study the issue

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until authority, responsibility, liability and

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punishment can be addressed.

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A number of states now are actually

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re-thinking their private prison contracts.

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Arizona, Alabama, Wisconsin, Idaho, Montana, are

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just a few that are starting to say, no, we want our

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inmates back.

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in our public prisons.

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We can do better in our home states,

Although cost-savings in general tend to

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favor private facilities, states are examining other

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factors as well.

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recidivism?

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do with that?

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suggest that administrative overhead is missing from

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most comparison studies and that those studies are

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really looking at apples and oranges.

How about re-entry?

How about

What does a private corporation have to
Those concerned with private prisons

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Other critics suggest that private

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facilities take low-cost inmates or the

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cream-of-the-crop inmates that are medically sound

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and nonproblematic so they are not going to cost the

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private corporation any more than what was

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originally budgeted for.

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the details are what counts.

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You can put anything in the contract you want; but

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if you don't put it in, you are not going to get it.

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Other people suggest that
It's the contract.

Corporations constantly concerned about

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their shareholders often overlook the key issues.

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What does it mean for an inmate to come back to the

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community, to rejoin their family, to get a job, to

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be a taxpayer instead of the tax burden?

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issues, however, have become paramount in the search

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for combating crime and enhancing public safety.

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To us, the bottom line is:

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Are the commonwealth and its citizens

These

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responsible and liable for those in its care or are

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the shareholders' profits what we are responsible

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for upholding?

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Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you very much.

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Are there members with questions?

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McGeehan.

Representative

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REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Thank you very

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much.

And, Mr. Chairman, I want to begin by just

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thanking you and Chairman Caltagirone and Chairman

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DiGirolamo and Chairman Marsico for allowing this

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hearing to take place.

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issue, evidenced by Representative Goodman's

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legislation and the interested parties who are here

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to testify today.

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I think it's an important

I have the unenviable position of having

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all the correctional facilities in the City of

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Philadelphia located in my district.

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any legislator in the commonwealth, have more

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prisons in the district than anyone so it's a

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concern particularly to me and that's why I am so

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grateful to the Chairman for agreeing to this

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hearing.

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me greatly.

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I probably, of

And the issue of private prisons concerns

In the states that you talked about, I am

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shocked that 31 states now have either constructed

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private prisons or are administering private

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prisons.

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And the seven states that have

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complaints, what are the nature, generally, of the

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complaints?

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Actually the complaints

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are widespread.

Medical issues are critical.

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Cleanliness is a big issue.

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a big issue.

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issue.

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are the ones that seem to crop up.

Access to attorneys is

Access to family visitation is a big

There are a lot more, but those generally

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REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

You talked

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about the private prisons being able to siphon-off

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the cream-of-the-crop if there are any of those who

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are incarcerated.

How is that done?

How does the

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state or a locality pick what prisoners go where?

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And do they, in fact -- Is there a selection

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process?

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And is that going on, to your knowledge?
MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

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process.

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though.

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There is a selection

I am not exactly sure how it works,
We can find that out.
REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

You talked

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about, those in support are basically hoping for the

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tax benefit for the locality.

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And maybe you are not the person; maybe there is

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someone else that may answer this.

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study of the long-term tax consequences for these

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states?

Is there a study --

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

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REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

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publicly-run prisons?

But is there a

Not that we have seen.
Private versus

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

We have not seen that,

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but we have seen numerous articles that talk about

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the costs incurred and how counties are surprised

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when they are not saving the big dollars that they

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thought they would.

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REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:
Chairman.

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Thank you, Mr.

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you.

Representative Cappelli.

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REPRESENTATIVE CAPPELLI:

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Chairman.

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testimony.

Thank you, Mr.

Mrs. Schwartzman, thank you for your

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It's been very enlightening.
I have got more or less a global question

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for you.

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operate 27 correctional facilities, I believe 13

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community correction facilities and additional

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complexes.

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46,000, an all-time high, which is quite disturbing.

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I know here, in the commonwealth, we

Our inmate population is now over

You had mentioned in your testimony, and

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Representative McGeehan touched on it as well, 31

21

states are engaged with private contractors for

22

correctional services, 112,000 inmates.

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inmates state and federal or is that number

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exclusively state inmates?

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Are those

That's a combination:

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state, federal, and even some county inmates.

2

REPRESENTATIVE CAPPELLI:

Okay.

Besides

3

the economic issue--and I agree with your assessment

4

that we are probably looking more at apples and

5

oranges when these proposals are proffered--are we

6

looking at a larger problem of capacity, both from a

7

state perspective and a Federal Bureau of Prisons'

8

perspective?

9

Is it a case where the systems, the

10

states' as well as the feds, simply don't have the

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physical capacity or necessarily the financial

12

resources timely enough to provide adequate

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facilities and space?

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MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

I think the capacity

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question is one of the questions, but Alabama is one

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of the states that actually is not facing an

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overcrowding situation to the extent they used to,

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and they are actually looking at pulling back.

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have extra beds now that they can put their own

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state inmates into.

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They

Pennsylvania clearly is in a whole

22

different situation, but we are also looking at

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alternatives that could be established right now,

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and we would suggest that those alternatives be put

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in place before we do anything as drastic as look to

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a private prison.

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REPRESENTATIVE CAPPELLI:

I appreciate

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that.

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Representative Goodman that one of the foremost

5

provinces of state government is to ensure for

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public safety, and that's a responsibility that we

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should not be subcontracting out.

8

concerned that, you know, nationally, that if we

9

have a prison capacity crisis, that we address it,

10

And I agree with the legislation and

and address it quickly.

11
12

Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you.

Representative Sabatina.

13
14

I was just

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

Good morning.

Thank you --

15

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Hi.

16

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

-- for your

17

testimony.

18

you what are some of the problems with the private

19

prisons, you had said, access to attorneys.

20

was just wondering, is that because the prisons are

21

restrictive in who enters, or the attorneys don't

22

want to travel to?

23

why that is a problem.

24
25

When Representative McGeehan had asked

In other words, I am wondering

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:
access in general.

And I

Um-hum.

It's the

Some of these facilities, state

0025
1

inmates or federal inmates have to travel, you know,

2

by airplane, whatever, and the attorneys don't want

3

to do that; no one is going to pick up their cost.

4

It's actual access in the facility just because of

5

the complexities in all of the different facilities.

6

Some of the other problems, though, deal

7

with the employees and the correctional officers and

8

not receiving enough training, not necessarily

9

knowing what the rules are.

Private prisons are

10

well-known to try to skimp somewhat on employees'

11

salaries and benefits so you don't necessarily have

12

employees that know what the rules are within their

13

institution.

14

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

Well, I know in

15

Philadelphia, attorneys travel down I-95 to go visit

16

prisoners on State Road, and I am just wondering

17

what the problem would be traveling to a, I guess,

18

private facility as opposed to a state-run facility?

19

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Going to State Road, I

20

don't think would be that big a problem.

21

example, for the Rhode Island facility where North

22

Carolina inmates were, that could, in fact, be a

23

problem for their attorneys, and more so, really,

24

for their families.

25

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

But, for

Okay.

Thank

0026
1

you.

2

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

3

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

4

Thank you.

Representative Buxton is next.

5
6

Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE BUXTON:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

7

When you were listing all the concerns

8

that you have with the private prisons as a

9

follow-up to the question of Representative

10

McGeehan, I really didn't hear you say much about

11

staffing.

12

Is there a major staffing issue with

13

private prisons as compared to those public prisons?

14

And I think you kind of touched on some training

15

aspects in your answer to Representative Sabatina.

16

But my concern is, do we see a great

17

difference in staffing from one type of prison to

18

another and the training that individuals received,

19

compensation that these individuals receive?

20

there a turnover of staff in one institution versus

21

the other?

22

Is

What have your studies indicated, as far

23

as staffing situations, that may be of great concern

24

for this committee to be familiar with?

25

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Generally, what we have

0027
1

seen--and we have only done some research, we need

2

to do a lot more--that the employees' salaries are

3

much lower; they get much, much fewer benefits or

4

the benefit package isn't quite as good as what the

5

state or county employees might receive; and the

6

training is usually limited.

7

put in situations they have no experience with.

8

Oftentimes, they are

In the situation, for example, in

9

Pennsylvania, where Delaware County opened up, a

10

number of actual officers who had worked in the

11

public facility were brought over, but they,

12

themselves, saw a big difference between how the

13

public facility worked and how the private facility

14

actually worked; they were not given the same

15

training, they were not given the same benefits,

16

there were difficulties.

17

One of the big questions came up when a

18

contract was ready to be renewed, what were the

19

correctional officers going to do?

20

employees.

21

strike when you are working for an institution such

22

as a prison?

23

explored, huge issues that have to be looked at.

24

And these cannot be done unless there is a major

25

study done that really looks at what is happening

They are private

They have a right to strike.

Can you

I mean, huge issues that have to be

0028
1

around the country.

2

REPRESENTATIVE BUXTON:

Just as a quick

3

follow-up.

4

of the problems that you just enunciated, couldn't

5

they be covered in a contract between the state,

6

county, or local government with the private prison

7

vendor?

8

contract what staffing should be?

9

I am no fan of private prisons, but some

For example, could they dictate in a

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

I don't know for sure,

10

because I have never actually seen the contract.

11

But my understanding is, if you can legally put in

12

any language that you want, you would be able to

13

actually enunciate that.

14

Our concerns, though, go even further,

15

and I should have mentioned before, you also have

16

the issue of whether or not you want these private

17

correctional officers using weapons, these private

18

correctional officers punishing people.

19

does it go?

20

they private institutional correctional guards?

21

There are big questions that have to be answered.

Are they law enforcement officers?

22

REPRESENTATIVE BUXTON:

23

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

24

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

25

How far

Representative Goodman.

Thank you.

Thanks.
Thank you.

Are

0029
1
2

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

3

I commend you on all of the research that

4

you did here.

5

this legislation, I found that there were many

6

unanswered questions.

7

questions, I got fewer answers.

8
9

As I was doing my research to propose

As I began to ask more

And one of the things that really jumps
out at me here is, you called it, the Institute for

10

Taxation and Economic Policy, a Good Jobs First

11

Project.

12

that was conducted by the US Attorney General's

13

Office, I was asking about some of the cost.

14

Because the myth out there is that private prisons

15

are more -- they are cheaper to run, they are more

16

cost-effective, they save the taxpayers a lot of

17

money.

18

I don't get straight answers.

19

When I did my research on the 1998 study

But when I ask a lot of different questions,

And one of the things that really did

20

jump out at me in your testimony, and what I found

21

in my research, is how many private prisons get

22

money upfront, get tax abatements.

23

out that $628 million in tax-free bonds and the

24

government-issued securities provided financing for

25

over 60 private facilities.

Here, you point

0030
1

I mean, one of the things that

2

Representative Buxton, I think was alluding to, was

3

that you can write any contract you want.

4

you can write a contract that says you are going to

5

cover from A to Z.

6

county and federal private prisons are also on a

7

budget, and they know if their contract gets too

8

explicit as to what they want to cover, no one is

9

going to put a bid in.

10

I mean,

The problem is many of these

And another problem that I found was,

11

there are many companies that will come in and do

12

the first bid low, knowing that once the facility is

13

built and once they are in there operating it, the

14

governing body doesn't have any other avenue but to

15

renew their contract.

16

And some of the sweetheart deals that I

17

was able to find, like some of the money upfront,

18

some of the grant money, some of the tax incentives

19

that are given throughout the country to some of

20

these private facilities is absolutely, I mean,

21

just, it's unbelievable.

22

Where here in Pennsylvania, the

23

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, you know, we are, the

24

Department of Corrections through the Department of

25

General Services, are the ones that put out the

0031
1

contracts, and we are the ones that make sure that,

2

you know, all the I's are dotted and the T's are

3

crossed, and it's ultimately our employees that are

4

the ones that are operating these prisons and they

5

are answerable to us; wherein, the private

6

sector...?

7

So I don't really have a question, Mr.

8

Chairman.

I just want to say that I am very

9

impressed by the length and breadth of your

10

testimony here.

And as someone who was trying to

11

find as much information as you did, you did a very

12

good job.

Thank you.

13

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Thanks.

14

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you.

And we

15

don't want to fall too far behind on our schedule.

16

I am going to apologize early, that I am not going

17

to be remaining beyond the next half hour or so.

18

appreciate Chairman Caltagirone co-chairing the

19

meeting with me.

20

back in my district, which I can't skip.

21

postponed it twice before.

22

I

I have an ophthalmology appointment
I have

But I did want to ask one question of my

23

own, and that is a separation between the adult

24

prisons, that I believe you are mostly interested

25

in, and the juvenile prisons.

0032
1

Which we have two different types in the

2

state.

One operated by DPW.

We have a facility in

3

Danville, which is in my district, which has been

4

somewhat notorious for problems and the Secretary

5

herself has been greatly involved in some of the

6

problems there.

7

operated by companies like Northwestern Academy,

8

which are typically boot camp settings.

9

unionized.

And then the other is the prisons

They are

And we don't seem to have many problems

10

with those facilities, other than the school

11

districts failing to want to reimburse for the

12

tuition for the educational process within those

13

facilities.

14

So there are some lawsuits pending,

15

whereby, you know, the school district says, well,

16

these aren't our kids, but they are housed in our

17

county -- or our school district, so, you know, the

18

law says we should pay for their tuition; but they

19

are not from our county, we don't want to pay for

20

their tuition, so there is some lawsuits pending.

21

Does the Society have any issues with the

22

juvenile facilities, or are we strictly speaking

23

about adult correctional facilities?

24
25

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

We have heard stories.

But the Prison Society basically focuses on adults

0033
1

so I really don't have information about the

2

juvenile system.

3
4

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Okay.

Chairman

Caltagirone.

5

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

We were just

6

wondering, Ann, do you have any information about

7

the private corporations that are running these?

8

would imagine they would pay corporate taxes,

9

correct?

10

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

11

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

I

I imagine so.
That was one

12

thing.

And the other thing was, if these are

13

private facilities, do they pay property taxes,

14

unless there is a waiver in the agreement when they

15

contract either with the counties or whomever?

16

they pay property taxes, do you know?

17

curious.

18

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Do

I am just

I really don't know,

19

but it seems that most of the corporations are very

20

good at figuring out their bottom line and making

21

sure that they can recoup as much profit as

22

possible.

23

I don't know of many corporations that go

24

out of their way to make sure that the county

25

actually gets as much of the finances as they

0034
1

should.

2
3

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:
appreciate that.

4
5

Okay.

I

Thank you, Ann.

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Any other members?

If not, thank you very much for your testimony.

6

MS. SCHWARTZMAN:

Thank you.

7

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

The next to offer

8

testimony is Alex Friedman, Associate Editor of the

9

Prison Legal News.

10

(Off-the-record discussion occurred.)

11

Whenever you are ready to commence.

12

Thank you.

13

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Thank you very much.

I

14

appreciate the opportunity to speak to the joint

15

committee members.

16

the Associate Editor of Prison Legal News.

17

PLN, is a monthly publication that covers criminal

18

justice and corrections-related issues nationwide.

19

My name is Alex Friedman.

I am

That's

We have been published since 1990.

And

20

during that time, we extensively covered prison

21

privatization issues, including abuses at privatized

22

facilities, contract issues, financial difficulties,

23

litigation, and court rulings involving private

24

prisons.

25

PLN has about 7,000 subscribers

0035
1

nationally and internationally; about 60 percent of

2

our readership is incarcerated, the remainder are

3

judges, Attorney Generals, corrections

4

professionals, lawmakers, academics, and attorneys,

5

primarily.

6

I have brought copies of our publication

7

for the committee members.

8

story was on the Management & Training Corporation,

9

which is in the top-five private prison companies in

10

the country.

11

distribute those.

12

Our September 2007 cover

So, at your leisure, you can

I also serve as vice president of the

13

Private Corrections Institute which is a nonprofit,

14

Florida-based company that serves as a clearinghouse

15

for all information that is anti-private prison, and

16

that we advocate against private prisons.

17

a vast amount of knowledge on our website.

18

believe you might have some of our printouts.

19
20

There is
I

You are going to be hearing, later,
testimony from our field organizer, Frank Smith.

21

Further, I am a former prisoner.

I

22

served six years at a privately-operated prison in

23

Tennessee.

24

state-run prison in Tennessee.

25

CCA-managed South Central Correctional Facility

I also served time in an identical
The facility was the

0036
1

where I became extremely familiar with CCA's

2

internal operations from an inside perspective.

3

That experience lead me to research the

4

industry and become a national expert on the

5

industry.

6

testified at other committee meetings legislatively,

7

both in Tennessee and in other states, and spoken at

8

a number of conferences on this topic.

9

I have testified before Congress.

I have

I am not unbiased, and with good reason.

10

I believe my bias is based on the research and the

11

empirical experience I have had in dealing with

12

private prison companies.

13

perspective.

14

person in this room who has actually served time in

15

a private prison.

16

I do have an inside

I believe I am probably the only

It is good to be back in Pennsylvania.

I

17

did some of my high school years at the Mercersburg

18

Academy.

19

remembered the beautiful countryside, including the

20

fields that were filled with Pecan and Black Walnut

21

trees.

22

And during my time there, I had mostly

And speaking about the Pecan industry,

23

once the nuts are picked, they have to be stored and

24

so you have companies that bid to store tens of

25

thousands of Pecans in warehouses.

And to submit

0037
1

the lowest bid, they have to cut expenses, which

2

means they have to cut maintenance costs, and so

3

some of the Pecans go bad.

4

But that's not really the concern of

5

these storage companies because they are only paid

6

to hold the Pecans.

7

pack them in tightly and to hold them as long as

8

possible to maximize their profits while reducing

9

expenses.

10

And they have an incentive to

If you replace Pecans with prisoners and

11

warehouses with prisons, in a nutshell that's the

12

private prison industry.

13

I would like to speak a little bit about

14

accountability.

15

public officials are accountable to the public.

16

Public oversight by legislative committees, by

17

inspector generals, by the Department of Correction,

18

on the federal level by the GAO, and on the most

19

basic level by public citizens through public

20

records requests.

21

Public prisons which are run by

Private prisons are accountable to

22

shareholders.

Private companies have a fiduciary

23

duty to make money for those who own stock in the

24

companies.

25

not to protect the public.

That is the reason they exist.

It is

It is not for the public

0038
1

good.

2

private profit.

3

It is not to safeguard society.

It is for

Justin Jones, the Director of the

4

Oklahoma Department of Corrections, stated last

5

year, you are dealing with a private business here,

6

and they are in it to make money and answer to

7

shareholders.

8
9

Our mission is public safety.

And the ideologies don't always line up.
One example is in terms of information.

Public

10

records are public.

11

After a hostage situation at the CCA-run Bay County

12

jail in Florida in 2004, which resulted in a hostage

13

and a prisoner being shot, CCA refused to release an

14

after-action report about that incident, saying it

15

was proprietary record.

16

Private records stay private.

When I was incarcerated at a CCA prison,

17

I obtained minutes to an administrative staff

18

meeting where the chief of security stated, quote,

19

we all know that we have lots of new staff and are

20

constantly in the training mode.

21

are totally lost and have never worked in

22

corrections.

23

So many employees

If that company was in Pennsylvania, you

24

would have never seen that memo because they would

25

have never had to release it because it was a

0039
1

private corporate document.

2

Two months ago, I spoke with a CCA

3

insider who had recently resigned from the company.

4

And he told me that when CCA does internal quality,

5

audit assurance reports, two reports are produced.

6

One is for internal use and goes to the corporate

7

office.

8

redacted, is the one that they submit to the

9

contracting government agency.

10

The other, with all negative references

One of the big draws for prison

11

privatization is cost-savings.

Prisons are prisons,

12

whether they are private or public, and there are

13

only so many costs that can be cut before you

14

endanger public safety.

15

refer not only to the prisoners who are housed in

16

those prisons, but the staff that guards them and

17

the citizens on the outside who are subject to

18

violence by riots and escapes.

And by public safety, I

19

70 to 80 percent of prison operational

20

costs across the board are due to staff expenses.

21

To reduce expenses and earn a profit, that's the

22

primary way that you cut costs, if you are running a

23

prison privately.

24

Private prison companies do cut costs for

25

prisoner amenities such as less money spent on food,

0040
1

fewer blankets distributed, rationing rolls of

2

toilet paper.

3

of money that are saved are through staffing, by

4

hiring fewer employees and paying them lower wages,

5

offering fewer benefits, and providing less

6

training.

7

But the big bucks, the vast majority

Another way is to keep vacant staff

8

positions, vacant as long as possible.

9

to the bottom line.

It all goes

And this is the business model

10

of the private prison industry.

11

high staff turnover, as high as 50 percent on

12

average, and that's according to the industries' own

13

figures.

14

And it results in

I recall one private prison in Florida

15

that, over a time period of approximately eight to

16

ten months, had a hundred-percent staff turnover

17

rate.

18

public sector.

19

And those numbers are unheard of in the

Nolin Renfrow, Colorado's Department of

20

Correction Director, stated in 2004, the high

21

turnover rate of private prisons generally means

22

that tenured staff is generally low.

23

tenured staff is very low, sometimes they have

24

difficulties dealing with situations that are not

25

typical of everyday operations, such as violence and

And when

0041
1
2

riots.
High turnover rates results in fewer

3

employees, less experienced employees, and

4

instability in the prison environment.

5

results in more riots, escapes, and violence at

6

privately-run prisons, as well as staff misconduct.

This in turn

7

In Indiana, last year, GEO Group was

8

seeking prison guards at a job fair at starting

9

wages of $8.00 an hour, which after training would

10

increase to $11.00 an hour.

You must ask if a

11

private guard being paid $8.00 an hour is going to

12

risk his life to break up a knife fight among

13

prisoners or to prevent an escape into the community

14

or to even stand his ground during a riot?

15

Statistically, it has been shown there is

16

more violence and more escapes at privately-operated

17

prisons than at publicly-operated facilities.

18

have been numerous examples of private prison guards

19

cutting and running during riots and leaving their

20

colleagues behind.

21

guards, who are paid low wages, work in environments

22

that are similar to Burger King or Wal-Mart.

23

do not have professions and they do not have

24

careers, as with state correctional officers.

25

There

In some cases, private prison

They

During one ten-month period, from May

0042
1

2004 to March 2005, just two to three years ago,

2

there were five major riots at CCA-run prisons and

3

one hostage situation that involved a total of 910

4

prisoners engaging in violence, 120 reported

5

injuries, a double shooting, and one death.

6

in one company over a ten-month period.

7

numbers have no comparable level in the state-run

8

prison system.

9

That's

Those

Absolutely none.

Private prison companies also cut costs

10

by accepting only prisoners who do not have serious

11

medical needs, who are minimum or medium security,

12

but not more expensive maximum security prisoners;

13

they seldom run women's prisons which have vastly

14

higher per diem costs; and they tend to place caps

15

on medical care expenses for prisoners in their

16

custody.

17

When I was held at South Central, at one

18

point CCA prison officials rounded up all prisoners

19

at the facility who were HIV positive, put them on a

20

bus, and sent them back to the state prison system

21

because they were too expensive to care for.

22

Representative Debra Hilstrom in

23

Minnesota, stated in 2005, quote, if you are cherry

24

picking the very best prisoners like private schools

25

do with students, the state ends up with the worst

0043
1

ones, thereby driving up our costs, unquote.

2

Hopefully, this committee hearing is to

3

answer some questions you may have about private

4

prisons.

5

in advance.

6

prisons, also?

7

those same problems exist in private prisons because

8

prisons are prisons.

The two most common, I will try to answer
One is, don't problems exist at public
And, yes, of course they do.

And

9

But the business model of private prison

10

companies which involves cutting costs and focusing

11

on maximizing profits by reducing costs,

12

particularly staffing costs, which results in high

13

turnover and inexperienced staff, means that those

14

problems are more likely to occur more frequently.

15

The second question and probably the

16

biggest one is, can private prisons save money?

17

answer is, maybe.

18

conducted and most have found inconclusive or

19

minimal cost-savings.

20

good report, very comprehensive, could not find any

21

cost-savings.

22

in Tennessee in 1995, they compared apples to

23

apples, two identical prisons, one publicly run, one

24

privately run, found that private prisons saved

25

pennies a day, if that.

The

There have been many studies

The 1996 GAO report, very

A very good comprehensive study done

0044
1

Proponents of prison privatization claim

2

cost-savings of 30 percent or more.

3

the private prison companies that want the

4

contracts, they include the Reason Foundation, a

5

privately-run think tank out of California that

6

receives funding from private prison companies,

7

including CCA and GEO Group.

8
9

They include

And research by a former professor,
Charles Thomas, cites quite a few cost-savings.

10

Professor Charles Thomas was conducting research,

11

hidden to private prison companies, at a Florida

12

university, while he owned private prison stock, and

13

was paid $3 million for assisting in a private

14

prison merger while sitting on a private prison

15

board.

16

$20,000 by the Florida State Ethics Commission.

17

Private prison companies, however, still cite his

18

research.

19

He later resigned his position and was fined

Personally, I believe that private prison

20

companies can save money.

I think any time you have

21

a company that cuts corners, hires fewer staff, pays

22

them less wages, with fewer benefits, and provides

23

less training while capping your medical cost for

24

prisoners and cherry picking the prisoners in your

25

facility, can absolutely save costs.

0045
1

The question is, at what cost?

2

of public safety?

3

corrections?

The cost

The cost of professionalism in

4

Larry Norris remarked last year--he's the

5

Director for the Arkansas Prison Department--we have

6

tried it and it does not work.

In my opinion, they

7

cannot do it better for less.

Commenting on private

8

prison companies.

9

I would be glad to answer any questions

10

you have.

11

others, besides me, and the other people testifying

12

today.

13

I do recommend that you speak with

I recommend that you speak with the

14

family of Bryant Alexander.

15

17-years-old when he died of medical neglect at a

16

privately-run juvenile facility in Texas.

17

ordered $40 million to his family against

18

Corrections Service Corporation.

19

Bryant Alexander was

A jury

I suggest you speak with the Mayor of

20

Youngstown, Ohio.

After CCA built a prison in his

21

city, the prison experienced two murders, the mass

22

tear gassing of prisoners, an escape in broad

23

daylight of six prisoners including five convicted

24

murderers, and refusal by CCA officials to allow

25

state lawmakers into their prison.

0046
1

There was a $10.6 million settlement

2

resulting from abuse at the facility, and the Mayor

3

of Youngstown called CCA the most irresponsible

4

company he had ever dealt with.

5

I suggest you speak with the family of

6

Estelle Richardson.

7

was beaten to death at a CCA-run jail in Nashville,

8

Tennessee in 2004.

9

out who killed her.

10

She was a female prisoner who

CCA officials have never figured

I suggest you speak with the family of

11

Gregorio De La Rose, the prisoner at the GEO

12

Group-run facility in Texas, who was beaten to death

13

despite clear indications that there would be

14

violence occurring at the facility.

15

which is not known for liking prisoners, awarded his

16

family $47.5 million in that egregious case of his

17

preventable death.

18
19

A Texas jury,

I would be glad to answer any questions
you would have.

20

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you very much,

21

Mr. Friedman.

A question that I have, you said that

22

you spent six years in a privately-run, CCA-operated

23

prison?

24

MR. FRIEDMAN:

That's correct.

25

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Was that in this

0047
1

commonwealth?

2

MR. FRIEDMAN:

No, that was in Tennessee.

3

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

4

MR. FRIEDMAN:

5

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

In Tennessee.

Um-hum, yeah.
I don't know if you

6

would care to share, with the members, why you had a

7

six-year sentence and how you were placed in that

8

facility?

9

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Certainly.

And I get that

10

question a lot.

11

incarcerated?

12

I do like to tell people that it is similar to being

13

asked what is the most embarrassing, terrible thing

14

that you have done to screw up your entire life and

15

to be asked that time and time again and having to

16

answer it.

17

answer it.

18

The question is, why were you

And I don't mind answering that.

But

But I respect that question and I do

I was convicted in 1989 and 1991 for

19

armed robbery, for assault with attempt to commit

20

murder, and for attempted aggravated robbery.

21

received a total 20-year sentence, for which I

22

served 10 years; four years in publicly-operated

23

facilities and six years in a privately-operated

24

facility.

25

The reason I ended up at a

I

0048
1

privately-operated facility is that it was opened in

2

1992, along with two identical state facilities.

3

The exact same layout.

4

prisoners.

5

They needed to fill these up.

6

The exact same number of

Two run by the state.

One run by CCA.

CCA came open first so they were seeking

7

prisoner volunteers to go there.

It was a brand new

8

facility.

9

and it might not sound like much, but it was heard

And the big draw to go to that facility,

10

they had soft drinks in the cafeteria.

11

don't have those in state facilities.

12

And you

So that was a really big draw to get

13

prisoners there.

14

why.

15

sugar and it's a lot cheaper than milk and juice.

16

And we didn't get that.

Because soft drinks are carbonated water and

17
18

I thank you very much

for your candor.
Any other members have questions?
Representative McGeehan.

21
22

We got soft drinks.

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

19
20

Once we arrived, we figured out

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Thank you very

much, Mr. Chairman.

23

I think your testimony speaks to why this

24

is a combined hearing of the Judiciary and Labor

25

Committee.

Obviously, it's a criminal justice

0049
1

issue, but it's also a labor issue.

2

Pennsylvania is much like Texas.

We have

3

very little sympathy for prisoners.

4

think anyone watching on PCN live right now, or any

5

member of the legislature, there's not a clarion

6

call to give prisoners extra blankets or an extra

7

helping of mashed potatoes for their dinner.

8

And I didn't

What we do, though, have sympathy for,

9

and your testimony spoke to that, is the very real

10

danger that these underpaid, understaffed, private

11

prison employees are faced with every single day.

12

I saw a newspaper article and they quoted

13

one of these private prison guards saying it was a

14

choice between working at the prison or working at

15

Wal-Mart.

16

difference.

17

And at $8.00 an hour, there is not much

And I can see why a prison employee would

18

not want to get into a physical confrontation or

19

protect another employee for $8.00 an hour.

20

just outrageous.

21

My question is about training.

It is

I know in

22

the City of Philadelphia that we have special

23

training facilities for our prison guards, and it's

24

professionally done, they are given every possible

25

scenario in which -- that may come up in one of our

0050
1

county facilities.

2

Do you have any insight into the training

3

of these guards?

4

here.

5

Because it is a concern to us

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Absolutely.

Most of the

6

companies will state that they comply with the ACA

7

requirements for training.

8

Correctional Association.

9

private organization for correction systems

10

ACA is the American
And its accreditation, a

nationwide.

11

What they don't tell you is that is 40

12

hours a year.

13

more training than that.

14

initial guards to go through a rather intensive

15

training regimen before being placed in a prison

16

environment.

17

six-week training period for state prison guards.

18

And most state prison systems provide
And they require their

I believe, in Pennsylvania, it's a

There is no similar training period for

19

private prison guards.

20

thrust into the prison environment and they learn as

21

they go.

22

well all the time.

23

And often, they are kind of

Unfortunately, that does not work out very

I am reminded of several years ago, a

24

private prison guard, CCA in Tennessee at the

25

Whiteville facility.

He was there, I believe, less

0051
1

than two weeks.

2

put him out in the yard with over a hundred

3

prisoners.

4

backup.

5

couldn't remove the bone fragments from his brain.

6

His family was quite upset about that.

7

was nothing they could do.

8
9

He was a new trainee guard.

He didn't have a radio.

They

He didn't have

They beat him so severely that they

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

But there

I think your

sound bite probably answers certainly my feelings on

10

this issue.

And that private prisons are answerable

11

to shareholders and publicly-run prisons are

12

answerable to taxpayers and the legislature, and

13

that, for me, is more telling than anything.

14

thank you for your testimony.

15

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16

MR. FRIEDMAN:

17

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

18

Representative Sabatina.

19

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

And I

Thank you.
Thank you very much.

Good morning

20

and thank you for your testimony.

21

And I don't want to you believe that I did not

22

listen to your testimony.

23

My question --

I did.

My question to you is--since you have a

24

unique perspective in being both in a privately-run

25

facility and a state facility, and since you are

0052
1

here today, it is obviously a matter of great

2

importance to you--I guess, in your own words, or

3

for you personally, besides the soft drinks and the

4

lack of juice and milk, what is it for you that you

5

believe it is so bad about publicly-run facilities

6

as compared to state-run facilities?

7

MR. FRIEDMAN:

What's so bad about the

8

privately run as compared with the state run?

9

REPRESENTATIVE SABATINA:

Yes.

I mean,

10

could you give us some examples as to, you know,

11

just compare the two, I guess?

12

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Speaking from a prisoner's

13

perspective, privately-run prisons are much more

14

favorable because you can get away with enormously

15

more in private prisons.

16

corruption in private prisons was amazing.

17

could bribe them to get anything in.

18

facility that I was at, four prisoners escaped after

19

having wire cutters sent in in a package that a

20

private prison guard accepted for them and gave to

21

them.

22

The amount of staff
You

In fact, the

So, from a prisoner's perspective,

23

private prisons are great, we love them, because you

24

can get away with an enormous amount of misconduct.

25

From a public perspective, as someone who

0053
1

is out of prison and doesn't advocate violence or

2

misconduct, part of it is a philosophical objection

3

to privately-run prisons.

4

about privatizing prisons, you are really talking

5

about privatizing prisoners.

6

people.

7

sons and aunts and daughters.

8

objection to the notion of treating people as

9

commodities that simply bolster your bottom line,

Because when you talk

And prisoners are

They are people's mothers and fathers and
And I have a moral

10

particularly when you are profiting from their

11

incarceration and misery.

12

Now, not everybody shares that

13

philosophical opinion and I understand that.

14

from a public safety perspective, I believe, as a

15

prison activist who believes in criminal justice

16

reform, that the purpose of corrections should be to

17

correct.

18

or 20 years and do absolutely nothing for them and

19

then let them out and expect them to be law-abiding

20

citizens, that's just insane.

21

broken-down car and putting it in a garage and

22

taking it out 10 years later and expecting it to

23

run.

24
25

But

That if you put someone in prison for 10

It's like taking a

It just doesn't work.
Private prisons have absolutely no

incentive to rehabilitate.

On the contrary, they

0054
1

exist because you have more and more prisoners

2

serving longer periods of time.

3

base of prisoners, they lose money.

4

is to fill their beds up and keep them full.

5

how they make profit.

6

If you remove their
Their incentive
That's

So, from terms of correction and

7

rehabilitation, public prisons at least have the

8

incentive of public good, and public safety, and

9

releasing prisoners who will hopefully go on and

10

commit no more crimes.

Private prisons have the

11

exact opposite philosophy.

12

commit more crimes and come back to prison, they

13

make more money.

If people go out and

14

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

15

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

16

Thank you very much.

Acting Republican Chair, Scott Boyd.

17
18

Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

19

Thanks for your testimony.

20

the fact that you probably have one of the most

21

unique perspectives on this.

22

I appreciate

Just out of curiosity sake, you said that

23

there were, I think you said, three prisons in

24

Tennessee that were identical, two were public, one

25

was private?

0055
1

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Um-hum.

2

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

Do you have any

3

data of since, you know, the time that you spent

4

there, and since then, how those prisons have

5

performed--I don't know if that's the right way to

6

say it--in terms of escapes, violence, problems?

7

You know, is there -- I mean, because it

8

would seem to me that there would be a pretty good

9

comparison to lay this out and say, here is this one

10

and here are these other two that were public, here

11

is the difference.

12

available?

13

Is there any data like that

MR. FRIEDMAN:

To an extent.

Part of the

14

problem with researching this subject is, it's very

15

hard to get an apples-to-apples comparison.

16

When those facilities were built, and

17

soon afterwards, in 1995 and '96, they did some very

18

good studies because at that point they were all

19

very comparable.

20

expanded.

21

which, of course, reduced -- you know, increased

22

their bottom line.

23

similar increases.

24
25

Since then, the CCA prison has

They added like 500 to 800 more beds

The state facilities didn't have

Also, the population of the prisons
changed.

So one of the public prisons, for example,

0056
1

is a very violent prison, it houses closed security,

2

which is above medium; whereas the private prison

3

house is minimum and medium.

4

So at that time in '95 and '96 when they

5

did the studies, both on cost comparison and on

6

levels of violence, what they found was the

7

cost-savings were inconclusive at best -- or pennies

8

at best, rather.

9

private prison maybe saved 35 to 55 cents, if memory

I think they found that the

10

serves me correctly, per diem, per prisoner.

11

levels of violence, they found a higher level of

12

violence at the privately-operated prison.

13

On the

Since then, I am not aware of any very

14

comparable study between those three facilities, and

15

they have changed since that time which makes it

16

difficult to evaluate them.

17

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

One last question.

18

You said that you were there for -- you had served a

19

total of 10 years?

20

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Correct.

21

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

22

and then six in the private, am I correct?

23

MR. FRIEDMAN:

24

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

25

Four in the public

That's correct.
So just out of

curiosity sake, you seem to be, in my mind, at least

0057
1

watching you here today, the model of what we would

2

want people to come out of prison and be like,

3

articulate, part of society, contributing.

4

it happen that -- What happened?

5

were in the private one, how did you break away?

6

How?

7

of thing?

How did

I mean, if you

You know, was it just your own fortitude kind

8

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Recidivism rates

9

nationwide are around 65 percent.

10

that varies from state-to-state.

11

average.

12

And, of course,
That is just on

What that means is, it's about 35 percent

13

of people do succeed.

14

those.

15

There is quite a few that go out and commit no

16

crimes and become productive members of society and

17

so forth.

18

we want.

19

You just never hear about

And so, certainly, I am not an anomaly.

That's what we want.

That's what we say

But often, state legislatures don't

20

provide budgets for those kind of programs that

21

enable people to self-rehabilitate.

22

When people ask me that question, I say,

23

people, who get out of prison and succeed, do so in

24

spite of the system, not because of it.

25

very brutal system, particularly in the private

It is a

0058
1

prison industry, when people are treated and see

2

themselves as nothing more than commodities to make

3

money for big corporations and then are kicked out.

4

It is very difficult to succeed when you

5

have the stigma of a prison record, which means:

6

You have difficulty getting a job;

7

Getting a place to stay;

8

You are excluded from a number of federal

9

programs, and;

10
11
12

You are excluded from a number of career
paths.
Whether I was in a private or a public

13

prison probably would have made very little

14

difference.

15

to have energy and anger that you can focus in a

16

productive way can be good.

17

Private prisons did make me mad.

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

And

Well, I certainly

18

appreciate your testimony and certainly appreciate

19

your candor and openness, being willing to take a

20

very difficult and bad circumstance and try and make

21

it productive for all of society.

22

commendable of you.

That is very

Thanks for testifying today.

23

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Thank you.

24

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

25

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Representative Seip.
Thank you, Mr.

0059
1

Chairman.

2

Representative Sabatina's question earlier about

3

differences between private and state-run

4

facilities.

5

This is a follow-up, I guess, to

I myself had spent sometime at SCI

6

Frackville as a social worker there.

7

recognize that inmates are very resourceful and very

8

innovative.

9

And I

And you did allude to the fact that some

10

of the rules weren't adhered to in the private

11

facilities as they were in the state-run facility.

12

Is that because the staff was -- do you think they

13

were just unethical?

14

and insight on their part?

15

me some feedback on that, I would appreciate that.

16

Or was it a lack of training

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Or if can you just give

Certainly.

And that

17

speaks to several different issues, some which we

18

discussed, including training and turnover,

19

particularly.

20

then you probably know that a lot of the guards are

21

seasoned.

22

there a long time.

23

have come up in the ranks.

24
25

If you have worked in a state prison,

They are veteran-ed.

They have been

That's their career path.

They

And when you have guards that have been
in that profession for a long time, they have the

0060
1

experience, they know how to deal with manipulative

2

inmates and security protocols and procedures.

3

you don't have that with new and inexperienced

4

staff.

5

And

And when you have private prison

6

companies that have turnover rates of over 50

7

percent, by their own figures, you have a lot of

8

inexperienced staff in there that have, in many

9

cases, never worked in corrections, they don't have

10

correctional backgrounds so they do not know how to

11

deal with manipulative inmates.

12

They are paid low wages.

When you are

13

paid low wages and prisoners offer you hundreds or

14

thousands of dollars to bring in a small package

15

from home?

16

you value enough, not to do that, you tend to do it

17

more.

18

website, a vast number of misconduct cases.

19

Does it happen in state prisons?

Well, if you don't have a career that

And we have compiled, through PLN and PCI's

Sure,

20

of course it does.

But we found it much more

21

prevalent in private prisons because of the

22

inexperience of the staff, their low wages, a high

23

turnover rate.

24

working in careers as professional correctional

25

officers, but their job is akin to Burger King or

The fact that they really aren't

0061
1

Wal-Mart.

2

They go in.

They go out.

The consequences also are not necessarily

3

as severe.

4

company and you are caught having sex with a

5

prisoner, or by smuggling drugs in, they will fire

6

you.

7

another job.

8

to prosecute you.

Oh, okay.

9
10

When you work for a private prison

So they fire you and you move on to

In the state prison system, they tend
That's a big difference.

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Thank you.

Thank

you for your testimony.

11

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you all.

And I

13

want to echo Representative Boyd's comments that we

14

all appreciate your candor and wish you the best.

15

I have one final question, if you can

16

give us a short answer so we don't fall too far

17

behind.

18

In the case of probation and parole, is

19

there any difference when your minimum is served and

20

you are housed in a private facility as opposed to a

21

public, insofar as whether you are going to get out

22

early for good behavior or what have you?

23

a difference that you know of, in your role as

24

Assistant Editor of this journal?

25

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Is there

I have seen almost no

0062
1

privatized parole systems.

I am actually not aware

2

of any.

3

of parole systems are publicly operated.

There might be one.

4

But the vast majority

In terms of probation, court-ordered

5

probation, occasionally it does go through

6

privately-operated companies, mostly for supervision

7

purposes, such as GPS monitoring, other such things.

8
9

I am not really familiar with that
industry.

I do recall several cases where studies

10

have shown that probationers who are under

11

privately-operated contracts tend to get more

12

violations.

13

And you can look at that a couple of

14

different ways.

15

are just being more vigilant.

16

doing it better.

17

time you violate somebody, it makes them serve

18

longer on probation, which means that the longer

19

they serve under your company's contract, the more

20

money you make.

21

The companies will say, well, we
You know, we are

But opponents say, well, every

I am aware of a couple examples of that,

22

but there is no definitive answer as to whether

23

there is a major difference.

24
25

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Representative

Waters, and then we will need to move on so we can

0063
1

maintain the schedule.

2
3

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

4

A quick question I just want to ask to

5

Mr. Friedman, and that is, since you have served

6

time in private and state facilities, I get a lot of

7

letters from inmates, and I guess many of us do, but

8

I am getting a lot now dealing with the medical

9

conditions that they are experiencing while

10

incarcerated.

11

And if the people who are in the state

12

facilities are complaining that they are not getting

13

the kind of medical attention that they need, then I

14

only could imagine what kind of treatment the people

15

in the private industry, who are looking at the

16

bottom line even more closely, might be receiving.

17

Can you just give me a little indication

18

as to the comparison between the private and the

19

state facilities when it came down to the medical?

20

MR. FRIEDMAN:

I certainly wish I had

21

more time to discuss that issue which is actually an

22

entirely -- another issue that would consume another

23

committee hearing.

24

issue, both for mental health care and for medical

25

care.

Medical care in prison is a huge

0064
1

And there have been numerous, very good

2

reports:

3

had a big article, a series on medical care in

4

prisons; so did Delaware recently within the last

5

two years.

6

The New York Times; Michigan's newspapers

Instead, I am going to give you a story,

7

and this will be very illustrative of how the

8

private prison companies approach prison medical

9

care.

10

Keep in mind that not all private prison

11

companies provide their own care, neither do the

12

publics.

13

specialize in it, such as Prison Health Services

14

which is based in Brentwood, Tennessee, or

15

Correctional Medical Services.

16

two big boys on the block, in terms of privatized

17

medical care, especially.

18

They contract it out to companies that

But, the story.

PHS and CMS are the

At CCA South Central,

19

the prison where I was housed, they had a contract

20

doctor on staff and CCA would pay his salary to

21

provide medical care for prisoners.

22

They entered into a contract with this

23

doctor that would increase his salary if he

24

decreased medical costs for prisoners, and the

25

primary medical cost for prescription drugs and

0065
1

outside medical referrals.

And not surprisingly,

2

for every year the doctor was there, he maxed-out

3

his salary, and prescription meds. and outside

4

referrals plummeted.

5

prisoners didn't need as many meds. and they weren't

6

as sick.

That doesn't mean the

It means they didn't get the care.

7

That contract would have never come to

8

light except for the death of a prisoner who died

9

due to sickle cell anemia complications, and they

10

delayed sending him to a hospital for three days.

11

His family sued and that contractual agreement came

12

out in court.

13

paying a doctor more to provide less care because,

14

overall, it reduced their expenses.

So the private prison company was

15

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

16

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

17

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

18

Thank you.

I thank you,

Representative Waters.

19

And again, thank you very much for your

20

very compelling testimony and taking time to be here

21

today.

22
23
24
25

We appreciate that.
MR. FRIEDMAN:

I appreciate the

opportunity.
CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Next, we have Joan

Erney, Deputy Secretary, Office of Mental Health,

0066
1

from the PA Department of Public Welfare.

2

you are prepared, please proceed.

3

MS. ERNEY:

Good afternoon.

Whenever

My name is

4

Joan Erney.

5

of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services, and

6

we are housed within the Department of Public

7

Welfare.

8
9

I am the Deputy Secretary of the Office

And I am really here today to provide the
committees information regarding our request for

10

proposal that was issued in August, on August 16th,

11

2007, to solicit proposals to privatize three

12

forensic units that are currently operated by my

13

office.

14

throughout the testimony.

15

OMHSAS is our acronym so you will hear that

I really want to first advise you that we

16

are currently engaged in an active procurement

17

process, thereby I will need to limit my testimony

18

to existing public information, and I will be

19

limited in being able to answer questions that have

20

not already been asked, you know, specific to the

21

RFP, by the bidders, through the technical

22

assistance process.

23

I also want to make clear that this is

24

different from the other testimony you have been

25

hearing, and are likely to hear today, because this

0067
1

is not a focus on privatizing prisons.

2

treatment facility, and these are specialized units

3

that provide behavioral health treatment within our

4

state hospitals.

5

We are a

So, currently Pennsylvania operates three

6

forensic units associated with three state hospital

7

sites for the evaluation and treatment of

8

individuals who are in need of forensic behavioral

9

health services.

These units are located at Warren

10

State Hospital, which is located in North Warren and

11

Warren County; Mayview State Hospital, which is

12

located at Bridgeville in Allegheny County; and

13

Norristown State Hospital, which is in Norristown,

14

Pennsylvania, in Montgomery County.

15

There is the current capacity for 218

16

individuals across those three facilities to be

17

served.

18

there are currently 332 staff.

19

admissions are slightly over 500.

20

and Allegheny counties represent over 50 percent of

21

the utilization of our forensic units.

22

The current census is 199 individuals, and
The annual
And Philadelphia

The average length of stay at the

23

facilities ranges from slightly over 70 days and up

24

to 140 days.

25

are served there, approximately 95 percent served at

The vast majority of individuals who

0068
1

our facilities return to the county jail that

2

referred them.

3

the civil section where they may be discharged to

4

the community.

5

The remaining 5 percent are moved to

Pennsylvania's per diem averages $713 a

6

day.

And according to a report from the National

7

Association of State Mental Health Directors, the

8

national average for similarly situated units is

9

$388 a day.

Given the disparity between what

10

Pennsylvania is spending compared to the rest of the

11

nation, and in order to be good stewards of the

12

commonwealth's money, it was necessary to find ways

13

to control costs, bring our costs in line, and

14

maintain the level of quality services that are

15

necessary to operate our facilities.

16

So, in order to do that, OMHSAS did

17

release a request for proposal to develop two

18

psychiatric-inpatient forensic centers with the

19

capability for community-residential step down and

20

transitional-treatment team services.

21

initiative would provide for regional access to

22

state-of-the-art evaluation and treatment resources

23

and more fully integrate the complex criminal

24

justice and behavioral health components necessary

25

to successfully reintegrate this population.

This

0069
1

In order to achieve the taxpayer savings

2

and ensure quality, the RFP makes it possible for

3

the vendor to do the following:

4

Provide for the joint administration of

5

two sites, licensed as psychiatric-inpatient

6

facilities with capability to offer co-occurring--

7

that would be mental health and substance abuse--

8

treatment and intervention for up to 220 individuals

9

on the grounds of two state hospitals:

Torrance

10

State Hospital in Torrance, in Westmoreland County

11

in the western part of the state and; Norristown

12

State Hospital in Montgomery County in the

13

Southeastern region.

14

To ensure a treatment approach that

15

promotes opportunities for community reintegration

16

by the development of two specialized residential

17

treatment units for step down and community

18

transition.

19

In addition, provide for two specialized

20

Community Treatment Teams to support aftercare and

21

integration with Community Mental Health, Drug and

22

Alcohol and local judicial systems.

23

The request for proposal was released on

24

August 16th, 2007.

The bids are due next week on

25

October 31st, 2007.

There is a website that does

0070
1

have additional information.

It is through the

2

Department of General Services.

3

have the RFP listed.

4

questions and answers that are part of the

5

procurement process through the technical process.

It does, it will

It also has all of the

6

Thank you.

7

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you.

Is it my

8

understanding, then, that your department deals with

9

strictly prisoners that have mental health issues?

10

MS. ERNEY:

That's correct.

The

11

individuals who are referred to our forensic units

12

are individuals who either need a determination of

13

competency in order to stand trial or they need

14

behavioral health treatment which is mental health

15

or substance abuse.

16
17

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

adult prisoners as opposed to juveniles --

18
19

MS. ERNEY:

Yes.

These are only for

adults, correct.

20
21

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

MS. ERNEY:

23

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

25

-- that are also

covered by DPW?

22

24

And would these be

Yes.

adults?
MS. ERNEY:

Yes.

These would be

0071
1
2

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Any other members

have questions?

3

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

4

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

5

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

8
9

Representative

McGeehan first.

6
7

I do.

Well, it goes back to the testimony we
have heard earlier today.

Although we are saving

10

money, or it appears that we are saving money, these

11

RFPs that have gone out and the responses to the

12

RFPs, do we know the history of these companies who

13

are responding to the RFPs?

14

training?

15

benefits package?

16

heard in the private prison setting, motivated to

17

give the best, most reliable, dedicated care that is

18

expected?

19

So that, what is their

What is their wage salary?
You know.

What is their

Are they like we have

If it is the same experience in

20

privatizing your forensic unit as we have seen in

21

privatizing prisoners around the country, I am not

22

very optimistic about the future of the forensic

23

team.

24
25

MS. ERNEY:

I appreciate your comments.

What I can offer is, within the procurement process,

0072
1

there is a due diligence that needs to happen before

2

a selection is made.

3

evaluation team that will really go through and look

4

at each proposal.

5

We will, in fact, have an

We have not made a final determination as

6

to whether or not we are going to move forward.

7

That decision is yet to be made.

8

are at a process at this point where we are

9

exploring.

So again, we still

We felt it was important for us to do

10

that.

11

not made a final decision, and we won't be a able to

12

actually share that with you until probably early

13

after the New Year.

14

And we'll -- You know, we really again have

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

I find it

15

ironic, if I may, Mr. Chairman, that the argument

16

that you are using on the US averages, the per diem

17

rate is $388 and in Pennsylvania it's $713.

18

looks like a tremendous savings for the

19

commonwealth.

20

That

And we all want to do that.

But what are the real costs to, if we

21

don't do it right?

22

least in my reading of stories about private prisons

23

around the country.

24

like we are saving money.

25

And that's the experience, at

In the face of it, it looks

But the turnover rates, with these

0073
1

companies that you are dealing with, have you

2

explored that?

3

their training program is?

4

applied?

5
6

Have you explored, you know, what
How many people have

You had five bidders, is my
understanding?

7

MS. ERNEY:

October 31st, the bids are

8

due.

We do not, and I will not know, until the bids

9

come in, how many bidders we will have.

We did have

10

11 potential bidders on site for the technical

11

assistance questions.

12

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Well, the same

13

questions that are asked today, earlier, and I won't

14

belabor this point, are going to be asked.

15

Mr. Chairman and Mr. Chairman, that we ask those

16

questions, after the 31st, to your respective

17

department.

18

MS. ERNEY:

I hope,

I would only offer, sir,

19

because we are in the midst of the formal

20

procurement process, the process will go as follows:

21

the bids will come in, there will be a technical

22

evaluation committee that will review the proposals

23

and then make a recommendation to the Secretary.

24

that point in time, we also then enter into

25

discussions with the unions and the current

At

0074
1

employees and staff of those facilities.

2

far from making a final recommendation.

3

So we are

I would offer that our history in the

4

Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services

5

is that we are clearly very responsible and as

6

concerned as you are about both the health and the

7

safety and the appropriate treatment.

8
9

I think the standard document, you know,
certainly represents our commitment to not walking

10

away from our obligations to support people with

11

mental illness and substance abuse.

12

interest in assuring that it is not driven solely by

13

costs, but that there are also really

14

state-of-the-art and other opportunities for good,

15

quality treatment.

16

We have a keen

So, once again, there is a process to

17

take place.

18

do not know what those bids are going to say yet,

19

and I don't know who the bidders will be at this

20

point.

21

We have not made a final decision.

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

We

Well, I

22

appreciate that.

And knowing that the population of

23

those with mental illness and with drug and alcohol

24

problems are increasing in the general population

25

and in the prison population, I think it is

0075
1

incumbent upon us to use extra due diligence --

2

MS. ERNEY:

3

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

4

talking about these forensic units.

5

most troubled inmates that we have.

6

Yes.
-- when we are
These are the

And I hope that after the 31st and you

7

collated that information and have some preliminary

8

findings, you will come back to this committee and

9

make a report and allow us to weigh in on -- in that

10

decision-making process.

11

will insist on that.

As a matter of fact, we

12

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13

MS. ERNEY:

14

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

15

Thank you.
Thank you,

Representative McGeehan.

16

Acting Chairman Boyd.

17

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

18

Chairman.

Thank you, Mr.

Real quickly.

19

I presume, I just wanted to clarify --

20

MS. ERNEY:

21

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

Okay.
-- if House Bill

22

1469 would get adopted, Representative Goodman's

23

bill, would that apply to this effort that you are

24

currently undergoing the ending of it or --

25

MS. ERNEY:

We are not a correctional

0076
1

facility so I actually don't know whether you

2

expanded it to include us or not, sir.

3
4
5

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

It wouldn't.

Okay.

I wanted to kind of clarify that.
And then also, I did notice in your

6

testimony that really you are kind of different than

7

just, you know, what we were talking about, a

8

standard prison, in terms of the average stay is

9

only 70 to 140 days and it is for evaluation.

10

is it treatment, also?

And

Is that what we are --

11

MS. ERNEY:

Yes.

12

REPRESENTATIVE BOYD:

13

I just wanted to clarify for my own mind.

Okay.

14

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

15

MS. ERNEY:

16

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

All right.

Thank you.
Thank you.

17

Representative Goodman followed by Representative

18

Seip and then we will have to move on.

19

If there are members, and I would like to

20

mention this, who we do not get to, because this is

21

a joint committee meeting and we have extra members,

22

and you are not able to ask your question for a

23

specific testifier/panelist, please submit those

24

questions to either my staff or Chairman

25

Caltagirone's staff and we will try to get those

0077
1

answers for you.

2

But we do want our, as good as, as best

3

as possible, stick with the time schedule at hand.

4

So we will take Representative Goodman and then

5

Representative Seip.

6
7

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

I will try to be

quick, Mr. Chairman.

8

Okay.

Under the RFP proposal here,

9

currently in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, there

10

are three sites and there is 218 individuals served.

11

And then under the new RFP, there is, you are going

12

down to two sites?

13

MS. ERNEY:

Correct.

14

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

And as

15

Representative McGeehan pointed out, alcohol abuse,

16

mental health problems in our prisons is growing at

17

an alarming rate.

18

concerned about this, that we are now going to go

19

from three facilities to two facilities and we are

20

going to literally just be covering the two ends of

21

the state?

22

As the Deputy Secretary, are you

I found the same situation that happens

23

with our prison systems when you go to a private

24

facility, as there are a lot of hidden costs when

25

you do this.

0078
1

If you are going from three facilities to

2

two facilities, obviously you are going to save on

3

staffing, but there is going to be a great deal of

4

transportation coming from the 27 other facilities

5

and you are going to have to have guards

6

transporting them, are you not?

7

Are you going to be taking into

8

consideration, when you look at this RFP, the other

9

omitted costs that come with downsizing from three

10
11

facilities to two?
MS. ERNEY:

Let me first clarify that the

12

reduction to two facilities still maintains the same

13

number of beds.

14

It actually requires to have --

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

And then that

15

doesn't concern you?

16

like right now are being served at three facilities

17

and you are going to have 220 people at two?

18

MS. ERNEY:

I mean, there is 218 people

So we are not reducing

19

capacity, we are maintaining the current capacity.

20

And as you see by the numbers of individuals who are

21

currently there, we are not at full capacity, and

22

historically we have not been.

23

So when we look at what our need is, the

24

three facilities, the total number of beds has been

25

adequate to assure that we have the right capacity

0079
1

to have folks really be able to come in, have their

2

competency established or evaluated and/or

3

treatment.

4

western solution would seem to meet the needs of the

5

local county jails.

6

capacity, we have only reduced the number of sites.

7

And we have found that an eastern and a

So we have not reduced

Secondly, yes, we will definitely

8

accommodate.

If, in fact, we would move forward

9

with this initiative, we would certainly be working

10

with the counties to accommodate and look at what

11

the cost might be for transportation.

12

Currently, all three facilities are

13

available to members across the state.

Although,

14

there are certainly the eastern counties tend to

15

refer to Norristown, the western counties tend to

16

refer to Mayview and Warren.

17

additional capacity at those facilities, we clearly

18

make it available for anyone across the state, so

19

they already are traveling.

When we have

20

But we are certainly willing to look at

21

and consider what the additional cost could be for

22

transportation.

23

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Okay.

And I

24

agree, Mr. Chairman, with Representative McGeehan.

25

I think that another hearing should be held shortly

0080
1

after the department makes its determination with

2

regards to the RFP.

3

Thank you, ma'am.

4

MS. ERNEY:

5

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

6

Representative Seip, a final question.

7

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

8
9

You are welcome.
Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
Having worked for the Schuylkill

10

County-based service unit when it was employee run

11

and knowing how it's much different now that it's

12

being privately run, I am just wondering, I guess,

13

what steps OMHSAS is taking to ensure that there are

14

safeguards and maintaining the same number of

15

psychiatric evaluations, the same psychotropic

16

medications are on the formularies, the same level

17

of case management services take place, the same

18

number of treatment team meetings occur, and the

19

same attention to discharge planning is going to

20

occur at these privately-run facilities.

21

MS. ERNEY:

The Office of Mental Health

22

and Substance Abuse Services obviously is very

23

concerned about maintaining the level of quality

24

that we would have if -- that we have in our current

25

facilities, in any type of privatized model.

0081
1
2

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

We can get it

off the list (phonetic).

3

MS. ERNEY:

We do, in fact, and do intend

4

to have a performance-based contract where the

5

contract and the proposal would, in fact, dictate

6

the kinds of expectations we have.

7

If you are familiar with our Behavioral

8

Health, Health Choices Program, we have an extensive

9

standards document and contract that lays out very

10

specifically the kinds of expectations that we have.

11

We would move forward with that same type of

12

relationship with any vendor.

13

We also, in the RFP, have laid out our

14

ongoing obligations to monitor.

15

continue to do the licensing of the

16

inpatient-psychiatric facility.

17

responsibility that is required by OMHSAS as well as

18

the Department of Health, so we would very closely

19

be monitoring and overseeing the program.

20

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

21

MS. ERNEY:

23

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

25

That is a

Thank you, Madam

Deputy Secretary.

22

24

We also will

Thank you.
Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you very much.

0082
1

The next person to testify is another

2

administration official, William Sprenkle, Deputy

3

Secretary of Administration, Pennsylvania Department

4

of Corrections.

5

And at this point I would like to beg

6

everyone's leave.

7

doctor.

8

McGeehan as my Acting Chair in my absence.

9

I need to leave to get back to my

And I am going to appoint Representative

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

10

CHAIRMAN BELFANTI:

Thank you.

And thank you very

11

much for your attendance, and I apologize that I

12

will not be here for the remainder of today's

13

hearing.

14

MR. SPRENKLE:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman

15

and committee, for giving me the opportunity to

16

comment on House Bill 1469.

17

The privatization of public services has

18

been a topic of debate for decades.

19

that private providers can deliver many essential

20

services with greater efficiency and effectiveness

21

than can public agencies.

22

efforts often hinge upon calculations of

23

cost-savings resulting from turning public functions

24

over to private or nonprofit entities.

25

Advocates claim

Indeed, privatization

Opponents of privatization argue that to

0083
1

the extent that private providers ever achieve

2

economies over public providers, they do so

3

primarily by slashing wages and benefits for workers

4

and cutting the quality of services delivered to

5

taxpayers.

6

privatization occurs in essential functions such as

7

policing, corrections and other public safety areas,

8

there occurs a dangerous delegation of authority

9

from public servants to profit-minded entrepreneurs.

10

They also point out that where

The larger public debate over the merits

11

of privatization, though important, is beyond the

12

scope of my testimony today.

13

on privatization within the domain of corrections.

Instead, I will focus

14

The management of prisons has become a

15

lucrative business opportunity for private prison

16

providers across the nation, such as Corrections

17

Corporation of America, referred to as CCA, and the

18

GEO Group, Incorporated, formerly known as Wackenhut

19

Corrections Corporation.

20

Looking at prison privatization

21

nationwide, 7.2 percent of all federal and state

22

inmates at midyear 2006 were housed in

23

privately-operated prisons, up 10 percent from the

24

year before.

25

represents 111,975 inmates held in private custody.

As stated in earlier testimony, this

0084
1

This does not include offenders who may be held in

2

facilities where services are partially provided by

3

private firms.

4

As of 2006, 31 states and the federal

5

government housed at least some of their inmates in

6

private facilities.

7

industry held enough inmates to constitute the

8

fourth largest prison system in the country, behind

9

California, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and

10

Indeed, the private prison

Texas, respectively.

11

While advocates of prison privatization

12

offer many arguments in favor of privately-run

13

facilities, I would like to focus on three rather

14

bold privatization claims:

15

One, that private providers can operate

16

prisons in a more cost-effective manner than can the

17

state;

18

Two, that private providers can deliver

19

better treatment services and ultimately produce

20

greater reductions in recidivism; and more

21

important,

22

Three, that private providers can

23

maintain safety and security at least as well as can

24

state-run prisons.

25

The evidence suggests that these claims

0085
1

are largely overstated and are not supported by

2

solid scientific evidence.

3

First, the best evidence available about

4

the cost of public versus private prisons indicates

5

that overall there is no financial advantage to

6

privately-run prisons.

7

three dozen studies on this question found that

8

there was no statistical difference in the cost of

9

private and public prisons.

A major review of nearly

More important factors

10

driving costs were the size, age, and security level

11

of the prison.

12

Second, there have been few rigorous

13

studies comparing the recidivism rates of public

14

versus private prisons.

15

exist comes from the State of Florida, and various

16

attempts to analyze it have produced conflicting

17

results.

18

Much of the data that does

A major review of the existing research,

19

however, concluded that there is no statistically

20

meaningful difference in recidivism rates between

21

public and private prisons.

22

finding about the impact of services delivered in

23

private prisons is the strong concern that they

24

often rely upon poorly paid staff, suffer from high

25

turnover rates, and tend to take the more manageable

Closely related to this

0086
1

inmates into their systems, leaving the more

2

difficult and disruptive inmates for publicly-run

3

facilities.

4

Third, and most importantly, there is no

5

support for the claim that privately-run prisons are

6

safer and better managed than public prisons.

7

review of the research conducted by the Federal

8

Bureau of Justice Assistance found, among other

9

things, that private prisons have lower security

10

staffing levels, which undoubtedly contributes to

11

the cost-savings that may be produced, and more

12

staff and inmate assaults than do public prisons.

13

Management problems have been noted in

A

14

every state that operates private prisons.

Such

15

problems are perhaps best illustrated by significant

16

management failures that occurred recently in three

17

states:

18

states have heavily participated in the prison

19

privatization movement, with each having multiple

20

privately-owned and operated prisons.

21

findings may be mixed about cost effectiveness,

22

quality of treatment services, and facility

23

management, overall, the data document significant

24

problems encountered in these states that cannot be

25

overlooked.

Colorado, Louisiana, and Tennessee.

These

While

0087
1

One of the more egregious incidents

2

occurring in the privately-owned facility included a

3

riot which took place in the state of Colorado in

4

2004.

5

multiple injuries were reported.

The facility was significantly damaged and

6

Investigations of the incident revealed

7

troubling findings about security protocols and

8

related issues that prison staff failed to address,

9

including:

inconsistent completion of forms on

10

reportable incidents, emergency plan compliance and

11

response team staffing and training, use of

12

ambulance and emergency room services for routine

13

medical care, mental health and medical treatment

14

staffing ratios, tracking of security threat group

15

intelligence and gang activity report filings,

16

accuracy of quarterly reports, case manager

17

attrition, and inmate grievance processes.

18

Even though the Colorado Department of

19

Corrections cited the private facility with numerous

20

violations prior to the riot, prison management did

21

not address these critical problems which

22

contributed directly to the riot.

23

Troubling findings also were revealed

24

with the state of Louisiana's experiment with prison

25

privatization.

When compared side-by-side, its

0088
1

state-operated prisons outperformed privately-owned

2

and operated prisons on several important measures.

3

For example, it was determined that the

4

state-operated prisons had fewer escapes, had fewer

5

reported aggravated sexual misconducts, and were

6

more effective at monitoring and controlling

7

substance abuse among inmates.

8

An audit of one privately-owned juvenile

9

facility revealed serious oversights concerning the

10

physical conditions of the prison and staff

11

treatment of inmates, including findings that prison

12

staff were physically abusive, that substance abuse

13

was rampant, and that the conditions inside the

14

facility were dangerous and even life-threatening.

15

Finally, findings about cost

16

effectiveness and other outcomes within a

17

CCA-operated prison in Tennessee also called into

18

question the advantages of private institutions

19

compared to state or publicly-operated facilities.

20

An independent audit of CCA and two

21

comparable state-run facilities revealed that all

22

three institutions received statistically identical

23

scores across a variety of performance measures.

24

Moreover, this study concluded that there were no

25

cost-savings produced by the CCA facility.

0089
1

Another study by the Bureau of Justice

2

Assistance reported that CCA facilities in Tennessee

3

and elsewhere reported the average daily

4

cost-per-prisoner as $30.51.

5

billed clients like the state of Tennessee an

6

average of $42.72 per prisoner, which put CCA's

7

costs at about 20-percent higher than similar

8

facilities run by the state.

9

revealed more assaults and security issues in

10

privately-operated facilities than state-run

11

institutions.

12

This company, in turn,

Additionally, a study

More detail in these cases can be found

13

in the appendix to this testimony, but the point

14

remains that prison privatization, while promising

15

great cost-savings, efficiency and effectiveness of

16

operations, operates on a very weak foundation of

17

evidence about its effectiveness and raises many

18

issues regarding public safety and delegation of

19

public authority to private entities.

20

This is not to say that the use of

21

vendor-provided services has no role in corrections.

22

The Pennsylvania Department of Corrections has, for

23

years, contracted with private and nonprofit

24

providers for various services in the day-to-day

25

operations of our prisons.

0090
1

Presently, we contract for about half of

2

our outpatient alcohol and other drug treatment

3

services, and all AOD services at our dedicated

4

treatment prison, SCI Chester, are provided by a

5

vendor.

6

We also contract for various treatment

7

services, such as our new parenting program.

8

addition, 36 of our 49 community corrections centers

9

and facilities statewide are operated by vendors.

10

In the area of medical services, we contract for

11

physician services at all of our institutions.

12

recognize that private and nonprofit providers can

13

make valuable contributions of specialized and

14

highly complex treatment and other services needed

15

in a complex correctional system.

16

In

We

The Department of Corrections concludes

17

that at this point, though, privatization of entire

18

prison operations in Pennsylvania would undermine

19

the solid reputation for safe, secure, orderly and

20

effective prison management that has been

21

established by the corrections professionals in the

22

commonwealth.

23
24
25

I thank you, and at this time I would
welcome any questions.
CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you.

0091
1

Questions from members?

2
3
4

Will.

REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
We just heard from two deputy secretaries

5

of the Rendell administration.

6

here, I want to make sure I understand the position

7

of the Rendell administration on this issue.

8
9

And when I leave

You were here for the testimony of the
prior deputy secretary from DPW, were you not, sir?

10

MR. SPRENKLE:

Yes, I was.

11

REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

And they are

12

having an initiative to explore, if I understood the

13

testimony and the questions and answers, privatizing

14

forensic mental health treatment in our prisons, in

15

our state prisons, is that right?

16

her testimony correctly?

17

understood her testimony?

18
19
20

MR. SPRENKLE:

Did I understand

I mean, is that how you

I understood her testimony

as contracting out bids for forensic treatment.
REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

And is that

21

privatization, then, of that function of the state

22

prison system?

Or am I misunderstanding it?

23

It seemed I heard some of my colleagues

24

ask some questions, the Chairman, I think McGeehan

25

might have had a question on that and I think the

0092
1

maker of the bill had a question on that, and they

2

seemed to oppose that --

3

MR. SPRENKLE:

4

REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

Um-hum.
-- if I was

5

following their questions and answers, opposed

6

privatization of mental health treatment for

7

prisoners, this process that is going on, this bid

8

process.

9

And so, I am just trying to get clear, in

10

my mind, the Rendell administration's position on

11

privatization of prison functions.

12

support some, you do some right now, private

13

vendors?

14

MR. SPRENKLE:

15

REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

You said you

Yes, we do.
And so, do you

16

support this attempt or this endeavor to privatize

17

the mental health treatment of the prisoners in our

18

state prisons?

19

MR. SPRENKLE:

Yes, we do support it.

20

REPRESENTATIVE GABIG:

Okay.

I would

21

just like to make a comment.

22

question and answer and we are running out of time.

23

I know this is

But I come from a law enforcement

24

background here.

Over in Cumberland County, we had

25

a big prison riot years ago.

You probably even

0093
1

worked for the department, as a younger man.

2

so, I feel that there are core functions of

3

government, that government public employees should

4

do:

5

mind, falls into that category.

6

core function of government.

7

national defense, police.

And

And prisons, in my
I think that's a

And so, they should be public employees,

8

government employees, dedicated to public service,

9

providing these services, accountable.

Of course,

10

we are going to try keep costs down at the

11

government level just like a private sector tries to

12

keep costs down.

13

My concern comes in, though, there are

14

interests in government, just like there are

15

interests in the private sector.

16

anti-private sector.

17

as people here know, and free market.

18

believe there is these core functions.

I am not

I am very pro private sector,
But I do

19

And so, I think we need to be somewhat

20

careful when we move down these roads, turnpikes,

21

when we are going to privatize government functions.

22

And we need to do it smartly.

23

lot of things, I think, we do in the government that

24

we shouldn't be doing.

25

it much, much better.

You know, there is a

The private sector could do

0094
1

But when you are, you know, trying to

2

protect society from murderers and rapists and drug

3

dealers, the people that are in our state prisons, I

4

want to have somebody that is dedicated to that job

5

from a public service standpoint.

6

There is going to be problems.

7

going to be abuses.

8

things.

9

It happens in the military.

There is

I prosecuted guards for abusing

You know, that happens everywhere you are.
I prosecuted fellow

10

military people.

11

know, it's a -- You know, the US Military is a fine

12

institution.

13

institution.

14

But as an institution, it's, you

Our state prison system is a great

So I am a little leery of this, but I

15

don't want to -- I think we can go too far on it.

16

And if some of these things, the administration's

17

initiative to privatize some of these things which

18

are, I don't want to say extraneous to protecting

19

public safety, but it's that additional thing, this

20

medical treatment and all of that, those are

21

subsidiary things that come with the main goal of

22

protecting society from convicted criminals.

23

So, I guess that is my concern.

When I

24

heard those questions that we need to, you know,

25

sort of knock down this Rendell administration

0095
1

initiative, to explore ways that we might more

2

effectively provide health care, when we know the

3

cost of health care is going through the roof for

4

everyone, including government agencies, I would

5

just caution my fellow colleagues to at least give

6

the administration a shot at this.

7

The department seems to be supportive of it.

8

don't think we need to be such a strong break on

9

that initiative.

10

Let them go.
So I

But, you know, with those comments, I

11

would listen to some wiser heads that are hearing

12

it.

13

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you.

14

There were some additional members that

15

came to the panel, and would you please introduce

16

yourself for the record so that you can be recorded.

17

The back row, and then also Ron.

18

REPRESENTATIVE SHIMKUS:

I am

19

Representative Frank Shimkus from the 113th District

20

of Lackawanna County.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

21

REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS:

22

Jewell Williams from Philadelphia County, 197th

23

District.

24
25

REPRESENTATIVE COX:

Representative

I am Representative

Jim Cox from western Berks County, 129th District.

0096
1

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Carl.

2

REPRESENTATIVE MANTZ:

Thank you very

3

much for your testimony.

4

interesting.

5

I found it very, very

One question, however.

To the extent

6

that it does exist, how extensive are prisoner

7

rehabilitation programs in our state correctional

8

institution today?

9

MR. SPRENKLE:

Yeah.

A major focus of

10

the department today is to ensure that we are

11

providing adequate programming, and not just provide

12

treatment but provide evidence-based treatment that

13

we know will, in fact, have a direct impact on

14

recidivism.

15

do is a very critical component of the mission of

16

the department.

17

So the whole re-entry aspect of what we

REPRESENTATIVE MANTZ:

Um-hum.

Have any

18

of those rehabilitation programs that you referred

19

to been contracted out?

20

MR. SPRENKLE:

Yes, some of them have

21

been contracted out.

22

I referenced the new parenting program will, in

23

fact, be contracted out.

24
25

For example, in my testimony,

REPRESENTATIVE MANTZ:

Um-hum.

Percentage-wise, of those program participants,

0097
1

rehabilitation program participants, how many have

2

been -- But has a comparison been made between the

3

success rate of both the private, those who have

4

been exposed to the private, contracted-out services

5

and those that have not?

6

MR. SPRENKLE:

At this point,

7

Representative, I am not familiar if, in fact, we

8

have yet completed a comparison.

9

the process.

10

REPRESENTATIVE MANTZ:

11

MR. SPRENKLE:

12

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

13
14
15
16

It's very early in

I see.

Thank you.

Um-hum.
Representative

McGeehan and then Waters.
REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Thank you,

Chairman Caltagirone.
I want to follow up on Representative

17

Gabig's excellent observations and real-life

18

experience.

19

number of presenters, and we have heard anecdotal

20

evidence, that you, as the Deputy Secretary of

21

Administration with the Department of Corrections,

22

what's the minimum training for a guard in the state

23

facility versus your knowledge or experience of what

24

kind of training someone in the private sector -- a

25

privately-run prison receives?

I have asked a number of times from a

That's the crux of

0098
1

what we are trying to get to.

2

Are you more trained?

Are you better

3

able to handle confrontations and emergencies in

4

these facilities as opposed to somebody who works in

5

a privately-run prison?

6

MR. SPRENKLE:

Well, I can certainly

7

speak on what we provide in the Department of

8

Corrections.

9

indicates that in a privately-run facility, one of

10

the first things that will get reduced is training

11

because of the cost involved.

12

I can also comment that our research

Let me just give you an example of what

13

we do in the state Department of Corrections in

14

terms of training.

15

that is hired goes through five weeks of basic

16

training.

17

that new employee is in a training phase.

18

employee gets daily contact training, and mentoring

19

from training sergeants, and supervision from

20

training lieutenants.

21

Every new corrections officer

For the first entire year of employment,
That new

That first year is organized, coordinated

22

in a way to make certain that our corrections

23

officer trainees are not prematurely placed in a

24

post without being thoroughly prepared to do the

25

post orders, the duties specifically to that

0099
1
2

assignment.
For example, when a trainee graduates

3

from the academy, that trainee can only work a

4

multiple post, meaning that trainee must work with

5

experienced staff for at least three months before

6

that trainee is assigned to a single post.

7

that employee or trainee working that single post

8

alone, that trainee will work with a seasoned

9

corrections officer.

Prior to

10

Now, obviously, if our focus was the

11

bottom line, a profit, we would accelerate that

12

significantly to help to reduce overtime.

13

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

14

experience, there are privately-run prisons in

15

Pennsylvania?

16

In your

There are --

MR. SPRENKLE:

There is a privately-run

17

county facility, and I am not familiar with their

18

specific training requirements.

19

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

In your job as

20

the Deputy Secretary for the Department of

21

Corrections, what is your experience?

22

you interface with your colleagues in other states.

23

What is the minimum training for someone in a

24

private prison?

25

it company-by-company?

And I am sure

Do we have that information?

Or is

0100
1

MR. SPRENKLE:

Based upon what I am

2

hearing and our research, it's really

3

company-by-company.

4

It's less.

5
6

But I don't have specific figures.
REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

I appreciate,

Mr. Chairman, your indulgence.

7
8

And it's -- I am hearing less.

If could you contact those states, your
colleagues in those states --

9

MR. SPRENKLE:

10

Sure.

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

-- and if we

11

could see the minimum requirements, you know, for

12

those positions in those privately-run prisons, that

13

would help us tremendously.

14

MR. SPRENKLE:

Earlier testimony

15

mentioned that in most instances, they commit to

16

complying with ACA standards which is significantly

17

less than in the state.

18

MR. McGEEHAN:

Thank you.

19

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

20

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Thank you, Mr.

21

Chairman.

22

and I have served in the 191st Legislative District

23

which is southwest Philadelphia, west Philly, and

24

Delaware County.

25

For the record, my name is Ronald Waters

I have Yeadon Borough.

Mr. Sprenkle, did I see this correctly?

0101
1

MR. SPRENKLE:

Yes, sir.

2

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

When I go to

3

visit certain correctional facilities throughout the

4

state, I noticed that, in Graterford, in particular,

5

they cut out their hobby program.

6

were building boats and other things that you can

7

use for visual enjoyment.

8

wanted them to concentrate more on programs that

9

might make them job ready when they come home.

10

That the guys

And they said that they

And when I went out to a facility in SCI

11

Greene Area, it wasn't this -- I went to SCI Greene,

12

but there is another one close to it.

13

with an F.

14

MR. SPRENKLE:

15

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

It begins

Fayette?
Fayette, yes.

16

And I noticed that the guys there were involved with

17

building furniture.

18

because I don't believe there is many places in the

19

area where they actually manufacture furniture in

20

this area, in Pennsylvania.

21

what kind of employment goals would they be able to

22

find, when they get out, with those skills, and

23

there is no furniture manufacturing places here?

24
25

And I kind of question that

So I kind of wondered,

And then when I went to Cambridge
Springs, the female facility, I noticed that the

0102
1

female inmates there were learning how to do braille

2

and pretty much guaranteed a job making about

3

$30,000 starting when they were released.

4

that was a great head start for them when they are

5

coming home.

6

classes that they are taking.

7

I thought

And then they also had the cosmetology

If we are really going to change the

8

recidivism rate, which is costing the taxpayers, if

9

people are constantly coming back to jail and not

10

coming out corrected, what are we doing in the state

11

in terms of educating people, making sure they

12

get --

13

They come there a high school drop-out,

14

which many of the people are when they come to

15

prison, what are we doing to educate them, to add

16

value to their life, so that when they come home,

17

they will have a better shot at being a productive

18

member of society, for the interest of public

19

safety?

20

MR. SPRENKLE:

It's a very good question.

21

The Department of Corrections, first of all, is

22

committed to make certain that all of our inmates

23

receive adequate education.

24
25

You mentioned the furniture factory at
Fayette.

I assume that's the metal fabrication shop

0103
1

that is run by our correctional industries.

2

that particular shop or industry of furniture

3

manufacturing has limited employability, I think it

4

is important for us to understand that we also have

5

the need, the obligation within the department, to

6

make certain that we provide as much internal

7

employment opportunities for our inmates as

8

possible.

9

While

That particular program, in particular,

10

is a very well-run operation.

And one of the things

11

that that industry, along with other industries,

12

does provide to our inmates is work ethics.

13

certain that they understand that they have

14

responsibilities, that they need to report to work

15

on time.

16

certain that they are providing the work that is

17

expected of them.

To make

They need to know -- They need to make

18

All right?

In addition to attending that employment,

19

they also participate in program activities.

20

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

I truly

21

appreciate that, the work ethics, I think that's

22

important.

23

in particular, who have got masters degrees and they

24

can't do anything with them.

25

ethics is good, but what good is work ethics if you

But there is guys sitting in Graterford,

So I just -- Work

0104
1

are not ready, job ready, when you come home?

2

So I was just a little concerned about,

3

are we getting people ready for work and then when

4

they come home, they can't find a job because they

5

are not qualified for any productive employment

6

opportunities that exist?

7

we really gearing people towards gaining employment

8

when they come out?

9

I was just wondering, are

And I appreciate what you said about the

10

work ethics.

That's important, too.

11

also learn work ethics, along with the job skills,

12

that they can gainfully acquire when they come home,

13

too.

14

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

15

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

16

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

17
18

But they can

Neal.
Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
Thank you, Deputy.

I was very interested

19

in the one part of your testimony here, where it

20

says, we recognize that private and nonprofit

21

providers can make valuable contributions of

22

specialized and highly complex treatment and other

23

services needed in a complex correctional system.

24

But that the Department of Corrections

25

concludes that, at this point, though, the

0105
1

privatization of the entire prison operation in

2

Pennsylvania would undermine the solid reputation,

3

and then it goes on to say about the safety and

4

well-being of people of the commonwealth.

5

I appreciate many of the different

6

questions that have been asked by my colleagues

7

today, and we can go off on many different topics

8

here.

9

Bill 1469, which, if enacted, would impose a

But I would like to bring us back to House

10

moratorium on the operation of construction of a

11

private prison at the state level and creates a

12

legislative task force to conduct a comprehensive

13

study with regards to private versus public prisons.

14

I mean, that's what this legislation will do.

15

You know, I am not someone who is against

16

private enterprise, you know, in the commonwealth.

17

I mean, if we can, if there are ways that we can do

18

things throughout government privately, and better,

19

I am willing to listen to that.

20

But my reason for introducing House Bill

21

1469 is because, as many of my colleagues know, we

22

have an overcrowding situation at all levels here in

23

Pennsylvania:

24

there are anywhere from three to four new prisons

25

being proposed throughout the state.

county, state, and federal.

And

0106
1

And I think it's important that this type

2

of legislation moves forward so that we answer the

3

question about private prisons before we go down the

4

road of accepting contracts or considering them for

5

state-run facilities.

6

And I only mention that, Mr. Chairman, so

7

we can bring us back on to the legislation, because

8

I know we are going over the time limit.

9

But it's important that we remember that

10

this legislation deals with state facilities.

11

if there are ways that we can make the Department of

12

Corrections at the state level more competitive, by

13

looking at alternatives in the private sector, I am

14

all for that.

15

And

But, if I understand your testimony, the

16

Department of Corrections does not want to see us go

17

down the road where we privatize an entire prison,

18

am I correct?

19

MR. SPRENKLE:

20

And we want to make certain.

21

that we can do the core mission of corrections, the

22

direct care, custody, and control of inmates.

23

can do it better than a privately-run operation.

24
25

That is correct.

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

We believe

We

And I think that

even when we look to privatize certain segments of

0107
1

the Department of Corrections, that in the back of

2

our mind should always be, even though it may cost

3

us a little bit, that we may save money up front; in

4

the long run, every time we take something out of

5

the Department of Corrections and turn it over to a

6

private contractor, profits is their motivation.

7
8

That is just a point I wanted to make.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9
10

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:
there any other questions?

11
12
13

Thank you.

Are

Representative Cox.

REPRESENTATIVE COX:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
Just a quick question.

You mentioned,

14

and I think you put it nicely there, you feel you

15

can do, you can take care of the care, custody, and

16

control better than a private entity.

17

I guess the question that's been

18

recurring in my mind, as I have listened to

19

testimony this morning--I listened to quite a bit of

20

it, I sat over on the side there before I came up

21

here--but one of the things that I keep going back

22

to is, have you, within the Department of

23

Corrections, have you identified waste?

24

One of the things that the legislature

25

this year has been challenged with is identifying

0108
1

ways that we can change, that we can rebuild the

2

trust.

3

I think the Department of Corrections is

4

potentially struggling from the same thing.

5

we make sure we are doing our job as efficiently as

6

possible, continue to do the goal that is set before

7

us, and yet do it in a way that the taxpayers are

8

getting their money's worth, so to speak?

9

How can

Have you gone through the process of

10

identifying waste within, of ways that you can

11

implement some cost-saving measures, things like

12

that?

13

Have you done an internal analysis and

14

come up with some ways that you intend to make some

15

changes?

16

Because a lot of what this moratorium is

17

going toward is, where can we save some money, so do

18

we have a moratorium or not?

19

But if we can see that you are doing

20

everything you can to minimize costs, I think that

21

would give a lot of us a great deal of confidence

22

that we should continue to allow the Department of

23

Corrections to go forward.

24
25

MR. SPRENKLE:

Let me just mention that

as good stewards of our budget, the question of, can

0109
1

we do it better, can we continue the quality of

2

service for less cost?

3

issues that we deal with daily in the Department of

4

Corrections.

5

All of those things are

You mentioned specifically what

6

cost-savings we think about and we implement.

7

cost-savings is something that is very important to

8

the Department of Corrections.

9

The

Let me just give you a for instance.

By

10

policy, every facility is required to have a meeting

11

at least once per month on identifying cost-savings

12

initiatives, to send those initiatives into the

13

central office, that we will review at least

14

quarterly.

15

fact, save us money without jeopardizing the quality

16

of the service that we provide.

17

And we implement those changes that, in

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

18

your testimony.

19

move to -- Oh, I am sorry.

Thank you for

We appreciate it.

We will next

Was there somebody?

20

REPRESENTATIVE COX:

No.

21

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Okay.

Monique

22

Hales-Slaughter and Stan Shulliba from the Resources

23

for Human Development.

24

right.

25

I hope I pronounced that

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Before you

0110
1

begin, the Chairman must warn you that you are the

2

only thing in the way of -- between you and lunch.

3

MS. HALES-SLAUGHTER:

We do realize that

4

and so we are going to be brief.

5

to thank the Chairs and the committees for having us

6

and allowing us this time to comment.

7

wanted to note, my name is Monique Hales-Slaughter

8

and I am with Resources for Human Development.

9

this is not Stan Shulliba.

10
11

And I would like

And I just

And

This is Naeemah Solice

Nelson, also from Resources for Human Development.
Resources for Human Development, RHD, is

12

a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization registered to

13

conduct business as a 501 (c)(3) corporation.

14

has more than 35 years of experience in providing

15

and coordinating supporter services to a variety of

16

programs, with particular emphasis on serving

17

populations with mental health issues, drug and

18

alcohol addiction, criminal justice involvement, and

19

homelessness.

20

RHD

RHD typically provides mental health and

21

substance abuse inpatient and outpatient services

22

and re-entry services to individuals upon release

23

back into the community.

24
25

We encourage this committee to consider,
regardless of who operates the facility, that

0111
1

individuals with mental illness and substance abuse

2

issues need services before, during, and after

3

incarceration so that they can be on track when they

4

get out and become rehabilitated, contributing

5

members of society.

6

The number of inmates with serious mental

7

illness in jails and prisons in Pennsylvania and the

8

nation has risen dramatically over the past 25

9

years, along with the overall jail and prison

10
11

populations.
At the end of 2005, Pennsylvania have

12

42,380 incarcerated adults, more than 10,000 of whom

13

were diagnosed with a mental illness, according to

14

the National Alliance of Mental Illness in

15

Pennsylvania.

16

Pennsylvania State Prison population suffers from a

17

mental illness.

18

individuals are more likely to spend longer periods

19

of time incarcerated than the general population and

20

are more likely to return with the staggering

21

75-percent recidivism rate.

22

More than 16 percent of the

These incarcerated, mentally ill

MS. NELSON:

The handout that we are

23

sharing with you today describes this Jail Diversion

24

model that is in line with the 2006 recommendations

25

by the Forensic Workgroup of the Pennsylvania Office

0112
1

of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services.

2

model would divert people with serious mental

3

illness and substance abuse, who have committed a

4

nonviolent act, into a program that would provide

5

appropriate case management, treatment, housing,

6

employment, and appropriate social services.

7

This

Michigan's Ionia County Jail Diversion

8

Program provides services for mentally ill

9

offenders, reducing recidivism and saving the county

10

an estimated $80,000 to $100,000 in monthly

11

incarceration costs, the Grand Rapids Press

12

reported on 2000 -- excuse me, on July 27th.

13

Participants receive a combination of mental health

14

care, substance abuse treatment, and assistance

15

finding jobs or housing.

16

The Jail Diversion Program would develop

17

a county-based collaboration of professional

18

stakeholders in corrections, law enforcement,

19

prosecutors, defense attorneys, parole, mental

20

health, substance abuse, housing, employment,

21

benefits, and mental health consumers with

22

experience in the prison system.

23

would create a comprehensive service delivery for --

24

excuse me, a service delivery system for jail

25

diverted people with as well as the infrastructure

This collaboration

0113
1

needed to support the delivery system.

2

At the core of the Pennsylvania Jail

3

Diversion Program would be a hybrid case management/

4

linkage practice that would coordinate services

5

within multiple systems, including the criminal

6

justice, social service, mental health, work force

7

development, et cetera, to enable clients who have

8

been involved in nonviolent misdemeanors to remain

9

in the community, ultimately fostering independence

10

and reduction in recidivism.

11

MS. HALES-SLAUGHTER:

We recognize that

12

we are not taking a position on whether this

13

committee should privatize or not privatize.

14

a community-based social service provider, and

15

merely suggesting alternatives to help reduce our

16

inmate population in Pennsylvania.

17

We are

So recognizing that we are between you

18

and lunch, we want to thank you for this

19

opportunity.

20

you might have.

21

discuss this further with you at another point in

22

time.

23

We will entertain any questions that
And we welcome the opportunity to

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Let me just say

24

this.

That, you know, for years now, I have been

25

mentioning to fellow members and others that want to

0114
1

listen that the nonviolent offenders, those with

2

mental health problems, drug addiction, alcohol

3

addiction problems that have probably done more harm

4

to themselves and their families than society at

5

large, just, you know, the cost of incarcerating

6

people.

7

I know they have committed offenses, I

8

know, you know, they have violated the law in some

9

degree, but I don't believe they belong formally

10

incarcerated.

11

I think we need to get smart on how we

12

are doing business in this state, and the amount of

13

money that we are spending.

14

And I just hope that we are setting the

15

stage for re-thinking what we are doing with our

16

whole correction system.

17

suggesting and what you have been doing, I think,

18

you know, we are starting to see more and more of

19

this.

20

And that, what you are

And I do believe that the time has come,

21

because of the costs associated with it.

And

22

Ronnie, Representative Waters, was just saying, you

23

know, when you think about how much we are spending

24

on each one of the inmates compared to what it is

25

costing to send our kids to college?

And, you know,

0115
1

you begin to wonder, where are we putting our

2

resources to use, the best use?

3

And try to cut down on that recidivism

4

rate.

I mean, the mental health and the drug and

5

alcohol, a very, very large percentage of what's

6

going into the system.

7

don't think they need help formally incarcerated.

8

So that's the end of my message.

9

They do need help, but I

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Go ahead.
Thank you, Mr.

10

Chairman.

11

have a bill in his committee.

12

his committee and I want him to take a look at.

13

I am glad to hear him say that, because I
I have got a bill in

Hopefully, the people, the members on

14

this committee, will favor using another method of

15

dealing with a person who is truly, in many cases,

16

they are nonviolent.

17

They just got a drug problem.

They are more like someone with a disease

18

and a sickness than they are where a person who

19

needs to go to a correctional facility, where

20

perhaps their involvement there might lead them to

21

coming out in more condition to continue criminal

22

behavior.

23

We need to treat their sickness, where we

24

can put them in a facility where we can concentrate

25

on exactly what they need to get their life back in

0116
1

order.

2

harm to themselves than they are doing to society.

3

And like the Chairman said, they do more

But if a person goes in and comes out

4

with -- based on association, perhaps more violent

5

than they went in, then we need to re-think the way

6

we are spending our taxpayers' dollars.

7

So.

And even though you are not here to talk

8

on privatization?

Truly, if you do this,

9

privatization, we'll not benefit from that because

10

it is better for people running a private industry

11

to put people behind bars, regardless of their

12

offense; do you agree?

13

MS. HALES-SLAUGHTER:

Yes, I do agree.

14

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Okay.

All right.

15

And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to make

16

those comments.

17

bill in your committee, too.

18
19

And I had to get that in about my

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:
other questions?

If not, we will take a break.

20

MS. HALES-SLAUGHTER:

21

MS. NELSON:

22

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

23

back.

Are there any

Thank you.

Thank you.
And we will

We will reconvene about 1:45 for our hearing.

24

(Recess taken.)

25

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

So we are

0117
1

running a little behind schedule.

2

Percy Poindexter.

3

MR. PINTO:

So Roy Pinto and

Good afternoon.

My name is

4

Roy Pinto.

5

State Corrections Officers.

6

and more than 10,000 members, I want to thank you

7

for your leadership and the service to

8

Pennsylvanians.

9

commitment to keep our communities safe as well as

10

I am Vice President of the Pennsylvania
On behalf of the PSCOA

Let me also thank you for your

our families.

11

I submitted my testimony.

And due to a

12

lot of it being covered, I am only going to touch on

13

a few facts and hopefully answer a lot more

14

questions.

15

One of the issues is:

we have 27

16

institutions in the Department of Corrections, but

17

we also have three forensic units which are our

18

people who maintain care, custody, and control of

19

the mentally ill in those three facilities.

20

really represent 30 facilities.

So we

21

Our position on privatization is simple.

22

Evidence clearly shows it doesn't work where public

23

safety is involved and we oppose privatization.

24
25

There are many apples-to-apples
comparisons.

California, in 2004, had 140,000 in

0118
1

private population and they had 160,000 in public

2

population.

3

population.

4

There were no escapes from the public

One of the things that I want to point

5

out to you guys is, our forensic units, in a decade,

6

has only ever had one escape since they have come

7

into being.

8

forensic side.

9

privatization.

10

Percy will touch a lot more on the
I just want to cover some of the

Our privatization, when we get into

11

comparing costs of privatization, the Department of

12

Corrections tried privatizing our medical facilities

13

with Wexford, here, not too long ago.

14

couldn't uphold their bargain so that was a clear

15

example where the lowest bidder did not provide the

16

service that was needed.

Wexford

17

When you get into considering

18

privatization being cheaper than the dedicated men

19

and women who run our corrections and our forensic

20

units, you get involved in numbers.

21

get into something that doesn't produce a product--

22

where if you privatize a company that produces a

23

button, they have a product at the end of the day--

24

when a human being is involved, you can't put a

25

price on it.

Okay?

And when you

That's government's

0119
1

responsibility, to maintain.

We are a reflection of

2

what the government wants us to keep under control.

3

There is only three ways to affect those

4

costs:

either cut the service; you cut the number

5

of people you are providing the service to; or you

6

cut the staff.

7

factors.

8
9

Those are the three determining

We are not here to oppose someone getting
that treatment; in fact, the opposite.

We feel that

10

the men and women who are confined to these units

11

receive the best care they possibly can under the

12

current system.

13

Our forensic units are, those people have

14

pending charges or are doing time and they become a

15

problem in the Department of Corrections, whether it

16

be for medication reasons or psyche reasons or a

17

number of reasons.

18

forensics are better trained than our corrections

19

officers because they have the care, custody, and

20

control of those people, but they also administer

21

treatment.

22

shouldn't be put on the block.

23

These men and women who work

So it's a very complex issue that

So I ask that -- for support to help

24

maintain control of our forensic units and look to

25

add them to our Department of Corrections facilities

0120
1

because the Labor Board has considered these

2

individuals, who have the care, custody, and

3

control, corrections officers, just as the union

4

thinks they are.

5

officers.

They are well-trained corrections

6

And at that point, Percy.

7

MR. POINDEXTER:

Thank you.

Good

8

afternoon.

My name is Percy Poindexter.

I am Vice

9

President of the Pennsylvania State Corrections

10

Officers Association.

11

employee assigned to the Norristown unit, with 18

12

years of experience working in the state mental

13

hospitals.

14

a forensic security employee at the Norristown unit.

15

I am also a forensic security

The last 10 years were spent working as

Privatizing these units, which hold some

16

of the state's most dangerous criminals, is a severe

17

misjudgment by this administration and a reckless

18

gamble with public safety.

19

I am going to modify some of my

20

testimony, too, because it talks about

21

privatization.

22

And this is the first time in my career,

23

as a state employee, I have ever had to say anything

24

negative about a decision that the administration

25

has made or what my department wants to do.

And it

0121
1

pains me greatly to sit here and talk negative about

2

DPW.

And I have never had to do it.

3

I just want to say, we are trained.

Our

4

training mirrors the Department of Correction.

5

like he says, it goes one step further and we have

6

psychiatric training.

But,

7

Most of the men and women you see sitting

8

behind me over there are forensic security employees

9

and a couple of correction officers.

10

Our training.

Most of us have come, like

11

myself, from the state hospital system as a

12

psychiatric aide so we have all had training with

13

psychiatric patients in mental health.

14

And we are all part of the treatment

15

team.

16

there that can give the care and treatment that we

17

do for these inmates, these patient inmates, across

18

the state, cheaper or better.

19

to think that they can.

20

I don't think there is a private company out

It's just ridiculous

The department was asked, a couple of

21

months ago, about privatizing.

22

had no intention on doing it.

23

They said, no, they

We are in collective bargaining right

24

now.

They have not mentioned the fact that they

25

need to bargain with us on reducing costs.

I asked

0122
1

that question to somebody in the department and I

2

also got a no answer.

3

We don't need talk about that.

4

privatizing.

5

Oh, no, everything is fine.
We are not

If you want to look at cutting costs?

I

6

am going to cut my testimony and just say, if you

7

want to look at cutting costs, bargain with the

8

PSCOA on doing that.

9

down and talk about cost measures in this contract.

10

We are willing and able to sit

Thank you.

11

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

12

Questions?

13

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

14
15

Thank you.

Tim.
Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
I have a question about -- I guess I just

16

want some clarification on it.

17

before, I had worked at SCI Frackville.

18

facility is entirely under the superintendent and

19

the deputies of the two departments, ultimately,

20

even though there are, at times, I guess dental

21

services or medical services that may be run by

22

private companies; is that accurate to say?

23

MR. PINTO:

Yes.

As I had mentioned
The

What happens in that

24

facility is all of our institutions, with the

25

exception of our three state hospitals.

Because

0123
1

there is a civil section, which people are committed

2

to get treatment, and there is a forensic; they are

3

two very different treatment programs for two very

4

different types of people.

5

under the DPW.

6

the DOC.

Okay?

And they fall

Our correction facilities fall under

7

However, the Labor Board, some years ago,

8

said that they perform the same duties, which is why

9

they are corrections officers in the forensic units,

10

that because they are the corrections officers there

11

that maintain the security of the forensic units.

12

Does that answer it?

13

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

14

And when I worked at Frackville, I had

Okay.

Yes.

15

the opportunity -- I was not a state employee.

16

did have an opportunity to participate in some of

17

the training, though, that was offered by the

18

Department of Corrections.

19

case today, that there are opportunities for people

20

to participate in trainings?

21

MR. PINTO:

Yes.

I

And is that still the

It was testified

22

earlier, when the department hires you, you go to

23

Elizabethtown for a six-week training orientation.

24

They have a very extensive program set up.

25

Actually, I think the Deputy Secretary has a lot to

0124
1

do with that.

2

And it's a great program.

And then not only -- Your training

3

doesn't stop there.

4

for another year-and-a-half of training.

5

essence, we tie up about a year-and-a-half of

6

training.

7

well.

8
9
10

You remain on trainee status
So, in

You are evaluated at the institution as

So everybody takes part in that training.
I don't know that then our people are

ever done being trained.
REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Right.

Absolutely.

11

And I guess the point I am trying to get at is, is

12

that the facilities are under the control of the

13

Department of Corrections; ultimately the

14

superintendent runs the institution; supported by

15

the deputies of treatment or security; and the

16

training is even offered by the department to the

17

private companies.

18
19
20

And I recognize the investment that the
department has in all of their employees.
And it certainly isn't motivated by the

21

bottom line, a profit margin, or anything of that

22

nature, and I would hate to see that change.

23

So I certainly support Representative

24

Goodman's bill.

And I would like to see things

25

continue the way they are now.

0125
1

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

3

Chairman.

4

perspective which I don't have.

5
6

MR. POINDEXTER:

13

No, sir.

I am

Department of Public Welfare.
REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:
Okay.

So it is there.

And I was confused about that.

11
12

Are you a DOC

employee or a DPW employee?

9
10

Representative Seip has a unique

To Mr. Poindexter.

7
8

Thank you, Mr.

And you have the same training as a DOC
employee?
MR. POINDEXTER:

Our training mirrors

14

their training.

15

different because our units are hospitals, they are

16

secure hospitals.

17

The training modules are structured

It's a prison setting with no cells, but

18

it is a hospital.

19

ill, but we treat medical issues as well.

20
21
22

Not only do we treat the mentally

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:
clear for me.

That makes it

Thank you.

MR. PINTO:

One thing, Representative.

23

You talked about a deputy of security and a deputy

24

of treatment.

25

they have a deputy of each.

And that's how our institutions run,

0126
1

However, the issues that everybody is

2

talking about here today is separate from the

3

Department of Corrections.

4

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

5

MR. PINTO:

6

The RFP is for DPW to give

away -- or put on the --

7

MR. POINDEXTER:

8

MR. PINTO:

9
10

Um-hum.

Privatize.

-- privatize these forensic

people who are waiting to do time.

And that's where

the issue comes in, putting that on the block.

11

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

12

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Okay.

Tim.

So, at Norristown,

13

there wouldn't necessarily -- there wouldn't be two

14

deputies in place at that facility?

15

MR. PINTO:

16

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

17

No.
Okay.

Well, thank

you.

18

MR. POINDEXTER:

19

MR. PINTO:

We don't have deputies.

They are structured just a

20

little bit different, but they still maintain care,

21

custody, and control of the inmates.

22

A good example is Norristown.

We just

23

did a grievance hearing out of Norristown, where the

24

men and women that work in that forensic unit were

25

faced with 55,000 hours of overtime in a six-month

0127
1

period.

Now, you talk about being cost-effective.

2

55,000 hours is a lot of hours to have in overtime.

3

MR. POINDEXTER:

And I can honestly say

4

that that was done because they cut our trainee

5

program.

6

up the cost of overtime because of this initiative,

7

because they stopped hiring trainees to go into our

8

training program.

I can say that was honestly done to drive

9

MR. PINTO:

So when we are looking at

10

numbers, take in the whole picture, not just the

11

number that they produce.

12

do it cheaper.

13
14

I could -- Anybody could

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

15

Thank you for your testimony.

16

MR. PINTO:

17

MR. POINDEXTER:

18

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

19
20
21
22

gentlemen.

Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you,

We appreciate your testimony.
We next move to Frank Smith, the

Pennsylvania Prison Institute.
MR. SMITH:

Well, I am actually with the

23

Private Corrections Institute.

We are a nationwide

24

systems watchdog agency.

25

think, testimony that you have been given.

That's -- You have some, I

0128
1

We have kind of formed organically.

We

2

are people who have been involved in the field and

3

very specifically focused on -- That is, our Board

4

of Directors, and Alex, of course, is one of those

5

members, and myself, and the executive director, we

6

have been focused on private prisons for anywhere

7

between about six to 11 years.

8
9

We have really intensively looked at
them.

We have done our best to sort out exactly

10

what kind of job they do.

11

on-site visits, FOIAs, Freedom of Information Act

12

requests, Open Records Act requests.

13

That includes things like

I am going to leave a couple of things

14

with the committee, if I can.

15

copies.

16

through, looking for some materials.

17

that to the committee through you?

Is that possible?

I only have single

I am just rippling
But can I give

18

THE COURT REPORTER:

19

MR. SMITH:

20

Who is the Chair now?

I am sorry.

21

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

(Points to

22
23
24
25

Yes.

Thank you very much.

Representative McGeehan.)
MR. SMITH:

You're the -- Thank you,

Representative.
I have another document here because the

0129
1

state brought up ACA accreditation, which the

2

privates use as kind of a fig leaf to cover their

3

problems.

4

organization totally in the thrall of the privates.

5

The ACA is a completely commercial

What I have here -- And if it could be

6

passed on?

Particularly, I spoke to Representative

7

Cox, at lunch time.

8

the American Correctional Association.

9

done by -- I found it in the Biddle Law Library at

This is a critique of the ACA,
That was

10

the University of Pennsylvania.

11

first time that anyone, in 10 years, has taken a

12

look at it.

13

It's probably the

It's just a surgical critique of the ACA,

14

that was done 25 years ago, that's as topical today

15

as it was 25 years ago.

16

piece by, I think, one of the most brilliant jurists

17

that this country has ever, you know, had the

18

benefit of being on the bench.

19

leader in dealing with mental health problems in

20

correctional institutions.

21

It's an absolutely amazing

He was a prime

It's particularly germane, I think,

22

because of what you are dealing with the forensic

23

unit now, and you are dealing with the ACA

24

accreditation and things like that, so.

25

Unfortunately, the accreditation bodies,

0130
1

for instance, like JCAHO--I am from the old school,

2

with when it was JCAH--is that they have accredited

3

prisons just weeks before they were closed.

4

you had problems here with New Morgan Academy in

5

Berks County.

6

accreditation barely before they were closed, when

7

the state DPW said, we are going to close you, we

8

can't tolerate this kind of abuse of juveniles any

9

more.

10

Horrible problems.

Like

That got

Let me go to my -- Just a sketch of

11

testimony.

I am trying to go real fast.

I

12

appreciate it.

13

nearly as intimidating when there is only seven of

14

you here, of course.

We have only got -- You are not

But let me race through this.

15

First of all, some people have talked

16

about savings, cost-savings, with privatization.

17

doesn't happen.

18

It

Many of the studies, as people mentioned

19

where -- are coming out of the Reason Institute,

20

some kind of covertly, like there will be an article

21

in Stanford Law Review in about six months or so,

22

that's really coming from Reason, from the same guy

23

who wrote an article nonpeer reviewed.

24

you attorneys, I think.

25

literature, but a legal note done by a student

Just some of

Not even a review of the

0131
1

nonpeer reviewed.

2

industry to say, we are terrific, look at this.

3

And it is used by the private

In fact, it was a little embarrassing

4

once.

5

was quoted in the entire article in the HLR was from

6

a book, Capitalist Punishments.

7

embarrassed because I had contributed chapter 10 to

8

that book.

9

guess.

10

The only piece of opposition research that

And I was a little

So I should have been flattered, I

Let me race through it again.

I spoke to

11

the Director of Corrections out of the State of

12

Arizona about a year ago, and she mentioned a study

13

that I was already aware of.

14

They had MAXIMUS look at their

15

correctional facilities.

16

apples-to-apples comparison, one that is quite rare.

17

They discovered that on an apples-to-apples

18

basis--very solid, peer-reviewed literature--they

19

discovered that private prisons cost 8.5 to 13.5

20

percent more than public prisons.

21

And they did a real

And it is quite extraordinary to

22

understand that, that the reasons that that happens

23

is, first, even though they are low-balling it, they

24

are deliberately short-staffing, even though they

25

are cutting corners at every possibility imaginable.

0132
1

For instance, somebody mentioned CCA here

2

today.

I looked at the SEC filing just a few days

3

ago and the CEO of CCA made $23.5 million last year.

4

These guys make millions and millions of dollars, at

5

the same time they are paying their staffs--somebody

6

here mentioned--eight bucks an hour.

7

GEO Group prison.

8

That was the

But a few years ago, I kind of turned a

9

panel discussion, with the CCA vice president, into

10

a debate, because they were paying $7.61 an hour at

11

Beattyville Prison in Kentucky.

12

And I had passed out -- This was before

13

the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America's

14

Prisons.

15

co-chaired by Nicholas Katzenbach.

16

It's a national commission.

It was

And I pointed out that they were paying

17

$7.61 an hour.

18

And he said, I don't know which prison Mr. Smith is

19

referencing.

20

He's the vice president for operations.

21

And they asked him if it was true.

He's the head of corrections for CCA.

Somebody else said, what kind of people

22

do you get for that?

23

question.

24
25

And he didn't answer the

And then somebody else said, don't you
have to pay that to make a profit?

Well, we were

0133
1

supposed to wait for questions, but I had to put up

2

my hand at that one.

3

that.

4

I said, they choose to do

Mr. Cider (phonetic), Doctor Rick Cider,

5

a prime manifestation of the prison industrial

6

complex, who was the Director of Corrections in the

7

state of Ohio; he was the warden in the state -- in

8

the federal prison system; he was the Deputy

9

Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons; and then

10

he was a professor at St. Louis University (our

11

panel discussion was at Washington University in St.

12

Louis); and then he went to work as the CCO vice

13

president.

14

And when they said, don't you have to pay

15

them?

16

got hired in January.

17

And correct me if I am wrong, he got 17,100 shares

18

of stock award in February that's worth two-thirds

19

of a million dollars and they are paying $7.61 an

20

hour for guards.

21

I said, Mr. Cider here is a new employee.

He

He is making $270,000 a year.

Well, the consequences of doing that, is

22

that you get this enormous turnover.

Alex referred

23

to 50 percent.

24

time the industry released the figures.

25

stopped releasing it.

It's actually 52 percent, the last
They

Public corrections is 16

0134
1

percent a year.

2

People talked about retirement.

I just

3

saw some figures last week that astonished even me,

4

and I'm pretty hard to astonish.

5

correctional officers, of public correctional

6

officers, retire every year, rather than resigning.

7

15-percent retire in the private industry at the .6

8

percent.

9

prison industry retire every year.

15 percent of

One out of 160 people in the private
And they have

10

been around for 23 years now, or they have been back

11

for 23 years.

12

We had a horrendous experience in this

13

country back in the 1870s, '80s, '90s.

14

Quentin was a prison in 1853, I think, a private

15

prison.

16

Let me get back.

In fact, San

So that's where the

17

money goes:

the money goes to lobbyists; the money

18

goes to campaign contributions; the money often goes

19

to bribes.

20

The sheriff, two counties away from me in

21

rural Kansas, took $284,000 to privatize his prison.

22

There is a trial going right on in -- right now in

23

Alaska of a number of state representatives that

24

were on a take from--so far in testimony--from the

25

partner of Cornell Corrections.

Cornell Companies,

0135
1

they call themselves now; the owner of Moshannan and

2

New Morgan Academy.

3

And they have convicted two state

4

representatives already, one of seven felonies and

5

one of three; the third trial is going on now; a

6

fourth has been postponed; there are numerous

7

indictments left.

8
9

And the State Senator there -- or the US
Senator, rather, may topple as a result of this

10

investigation that just burgeoned from the private

11

prison industry, who, in fact, tried to get the

12

bridge to nowhere built six years ago in Ketchikan,

13

Alaska.

14

People talked about subsidies, in some of

15

these read jail breaks.

Was it you, I think,

16

Representative Goodman?

79 percent of CCA prisons

17

get public subsidies, 69 percent of GEO Group

18

prisons.

19

are talking about infrastructure, all sorts of

20

things; so it makes it very difficult, when you

21

externalize these costs, to really get the true

22

costs of privatizing corrections.

We are talking about tax abatements, we

23

One thing that--since you are a Labor

24

Committee--you should be, in part, you should be

25

really aware of, is that you are exporting living

0136
1
2

wages.
When like in Brush, Colorado, when I went

3

and I found scandal after scandal.

4

sex with women from three different states.

5

are paying guards $9.25 an hour and a substantial

6

portion of these guards are pulling a second shift

7

at Wal-Mart.

8
9

One guard had
They

Now, we have talked about the problems in
the forensic unit with overtime.

The big problem is

10

that you need to maintain a level of vigilance and

11

alertness that you simply can't maintain when you

12

are working 60 or 70 hours a week.

13

impossible.

It's absolutely

14

I would like to talk just a bit about the

15

turnover process again, too, because nobody has used

16

the word -- The word is mentoring.

17

you probably have worked in professions where you

18

have been brought along by people that have been

19

around a while so that you can talk to somebody

20

who's been on the job for three years or ten years

21

or whatever, depending on how complex the job is.

22

Even a teacher.

I mean, all of

I mean, they go through

23

a mentoring process, of course, as part of their

24

education and their professional development.

25

When you turnover at 52 percent a year,

0137
1

you don't have any mentoring process.

2

nobody to turn to, to say, what do we do now?

3

There is

And what happens is--what somebody else

4

mentioned before--the guards run away.

5

videotape of guards running away, with two prisoners

6

being killed on videotape in California.

7

absolutely amazing.

8

private prisons that would just astonish you.

9
10

I have a

It was

I have videotapes of riots in

When you have that kind of turnover -You see, we have talked about the intense

11

training in correctional institutions and public

12

institutions.

13

What you have is you have --

I have been told by whistle blowers, and

14

I have whistle blowers going up to the executive

15

vice presidents in these corporations that have been

16

scandalized, that what was happening in their own

17

corporations--vice presidents, executive vice

18

presidents, wardens, deputy wardens, directors of

19

training from all of these different companies, the

20

bigger companies--what you have is you have

21

something like Gettysburg where you have 30,000

22

people killed and you have got field promotions.

23

All of a sudden, somebody is a sergeant

24

or somebody is a major in these private prison

25

companies; somebody who washed-out of public

0138
1

employment after three months and six months later

2

they are a sergeant in a private prison company.

3

In Brush, Colorado, that I mentioned,

4

there is a major there.

5

who she went through training with, because at that

6

state, it makes private employees go through public

7

training.

8
9

And I talked to somebody

She was a major.

And I said, how long

ago did you go through training together?

10

said, three years.

11

astonishing, and it shows in the performance of

12

these institutions.

13

And she's a major.

And she

That's just

One thing that nobody has mentioned here,

14

that the committee should be aware of, is various

15

denominations of the faith community have come out

16

and studied this really closely.

17

Catholic Bishops of the South, Presbyterians,

18

Methodists, United Church of Christ, Episcopal; they

19

have looked at this and they have come out with some

20

extraordinary studies.

21

The Catholics,

John Ferguson was the man who got the

22

23.5 million last year.

23

Presbyterian elder -- because the church came out so

24

strongly against private prisons.

25

He complained because the

But they have done this work.

And they

0139
1

have said, like the Catholics that call for the

2

abolition, not even the maintenance of the current

3

level but the abolition of private prisons.

4

that's something that, you know, your constituents

5

certainly would be interested in.

6

I think

One of the things they do is they talk

7

about economic development and I think we have

8

disabused people with that idea already.

9

One of the things that we haven't talked

10

about is the lobbying that goes on with private

11

prisons.

12

not be ALEC members, the American Legislative

13

Exchange Council, where CCA and GEO Group have held

14

sway with model legislation that they have produced.

Now, I assume that some of you may or may

15

In my state of Kansas, they pushed

16

Jessica's Law.

17

a package.

18

pass.

The GEO Group did this.

19

pass.

They lobbied for it.

20

And they had the audacity to call it

They said, we want Jessica's Law to
We want this to

They said, when it passes, it will cost

21

you -- You will have to produce another thousand

22

beds by 2012.

23

give you those beds.

24

You know, that's the presentation they were making.

25

They called it a package.

And we can do it for you.

We can

It won't cost you anything.

0140
1

It's just unbelievable because it

2

produces for them, of course, more market, more

3

market share.

4

You have seen examples of that right here

5

in Pennsylvania.

6

Moshannan where the community was up in arms about

7

it and Cornell just twisted arms and twisted

8

arms--they may have done it here in the state

9

legislature--until they got their way and they were

10
11

You have seen what happened with

able to put up that prison.
You can't let that happen.

You can't let

12

the legislatures--and it's happened in

13

state-after-state, particularly in Tennessee--being

14

the thrall of private-prison organizations.

15

Because they are writing legislation --

16

They are literally writing legislation that winds up

17

on your desks to put more money in their pocket.

18

Not in the pockets of guards, supervisors, unit

19

managers, but in the pockets of these executives.

20

Somebody talked about how they care about

21

their stockholders.

They don't even care about

22

their stockholders.

CCA's stock dropped, in 2001,

23

to 28 cents a share.

24

it dropped all the way down to 28 cents a share.

25

It was at forty-four fifty and

They had to do a one-for-ten reverse

0141
1

split in order to keep listed with the New York

2

Stock Exchange.

3

they are in the immigration detention business,

4

which is another nightmare, with tens of thousands

5

of beds.

6

It has come back up because now

But this is what they will do.

They will

7

manipulate public policy for their own economic

8

benefit and you have got to be on your guard for it.

9

And, you know, I hate to call any --

10

Let me tell a couple of quick anecdotes.

11

I talked to a very conservative senator, a guy who I

12

have had relationships, with years, in the state of

13

Alaska.

14

or five years ago when we were going through this

15

bridge to nowhere business.

16

And he called me into his office about four

And he said, Frank, tell me--and this is

17

what somebody else referred to in prior

18

testimony--tell me, don't you have the same problems

19

in private prisons as you do in public prisons?

20

I said, yeah, you do.

21

Because I read.

And

I have read 10,000

22

stories about private prisons in the last 11 years.

23

And I have read all kinds of studies and everything

24

else.

25

And I had visited them and toured them.
I said, you have the same kinds of

0142
1

problems, but the private prisons have 5 percent of

2

the prisoners and they have 50 percent of the

3

problems.

4

And in fact at the time I wasn't aware of

5

it, but they have unique situations.

6

seen in my experience --

7

I have never

And I have been around corrections for 40

8

years.

I have been a researcher.

9

in-prison services.

I have provided

I have provided post-related

10

release services.

11

so I have a wide range of experience.

12

seen this one phenomena.

13

I have done all of these things
I have never

So I asked the guy who has got 20 years

14

with the California Department of Corrections, in a

15

high-level line officer position, if he had ever

16

seen a case where a public prison guard --

17

correctional officer, rather, helped somebody

18

escape.

19

And he said he had heard of one.
You can pick up the paper,

20

month-after-month, and see these cases because it's

21

such inadequate screening, it's such inadequate

22

training, and such inappropriate people that just

23

don't have the personalities to work in these places

24

because they have such huge turnover.

25

And they pay so poorly where either a

0143
1

love interest or bribery or whatever cause one guard

2

in New Mexico to bring in a chisel, or chisels

3

(plural), hammers, hacksaws, all sorts of tools for

4

breaking out and then he turned up the air

5

conditioning so loud they couldn't hear people get

6

out.

7

Other places where guards --

8

There was in Crowley, which has been

9

mentioned, a riot that I predicted two months before

10

it happened who was going to do it, what kind of

11

weapons they were going to use, and why they weren't

12

going to be able to get away with it, and what were

13

the causes of the riot.

14

state of Colorado to listen to me.

15

that riot.

16

And I couldn't get the
And they had

But before that riot happened, I heard

17

that there was one officer who was fraternizing with

18

prisoners, having possibly even sexual relations

19

with prisoners.

20

from Wyoming--he got shipped to Texas.

21

Wyoming just immediately withdrew all its prisoners.

22

And when the riot happened--he was

He got shipped to Texas.

Because

And within six

23

weeks a guard -- in fact, three guards, two women

24

and a man, had broken him and a buddy, another

25

Wyoming buddy out.

And they found him in an attic

0144
1

of one of the guards.

2

brother's, in an attic hiding, about 10 miles away

3

from the prison.

4

One of the women guards'

This is something I have never seen

5

before.

In Mississippi, we just, not that long ago,

6

saw a female guard take two private prisoners out

7

and spirit them away and almost got to Alabama

8

before they were caught.

9

pick up a telephone.

They were silly enough to

And when a -- Their relatives

10

phones were being tapped and they were caught fairly

11

quickly.

12

But it's just some of these things are

13

just exact.

14

they are unbelievable unless you see them repeated

15

time after time after time.

16
17
18

You know, they are extraordinary.

And

One thing that nobody has ever talked
about in here so far today -We have named some groups like Cornell

19

(myself), GEO Group and CCA's names have come up

20

quite often.

21

know, the second question that the senator from

22

Alaska asked was:

23

prison groups.

24

would you pick?

25

What I found is, and this is that, you

You know all of these private

If you had to pick one, which one

And I said, well, Senator, you know you

0145
1

would be picking the best of the bad lot.

2

And he said, well, but name the group.

3

And I said, MTC.

It's a privately-owned

4

so that you can't look at their stock -- You know,

5

there is no stock filings that are of public record

6

or anything like that.

7

it's bad, but it looks better than the rest.

8
9

And I said that, you know,

And that's before, as Alex mentioned,
they did this nightmarish review.

That's before the

10

stuff started going wrong with MTC.

Everything went

11

wrong.

They were

12

losing prisoners.

13

after scandal after scandal.

14

They were losing contracts.

They were involved in scandal

And I was hoping that he didn't read the

15

papers or that his memory was worse than mine and he

16

couldn't remember because I would have been really

17

embarrassed seeing him again after saying this is

18

the best of the bad lot.

19
20
21

Let me hit a couple of other points and
then I really would appreciate any questions.
And, in fact, if you want to ask me any

22

questions where I need to follow-up, if you want to

23

ask me questions that occurred during the

24

deliberations on this processing, I would be happy

25

to give you any information you wanted.

I am very

0146
1
2

amenable to that.
So we talked about solutions that aren't

3

really solutions.

4

prisoner population.

5

Band-aides for overcrowding.

6

And they are trying to increase
They are not even providing

There's a reciprocal thing that happens.

7

When you spend more on prisons, as you have all

8

found out--much to your dismay, I am sure--is that

9

when you spend more money on prisons, you are

10

spending it less on education, you are spending it

11

less on health care.

12
13
14

It's a zero-sum game.

So you have got to decide where the bucks
are going to go.
The Fund for Investigative Journalism did

15

a wonderful study about five, six years ago, where

16

they looked at the trends in spending on higher

17

education as opposed to spending on incarceration on

18

public prisons.

19

And it's like this.

It's this reciprocal

20

relationship.

21

escalated and escalated, the education subsidies,

22

you know, for our universities and colleges, went

23

down and down and down.

24
25

As these prison costs escalated and

And you have got that on your plate.
have got to really understand that committing to

You

0147
1

these guys that are so interested in profits, not

2

their stockholders but their executives, is going to

3

take money away from the educations of your

4

constituents and their children and their

5

grandchildren's.

6

to go away easily.

7

It's not a process that is going

One of the things that was mentioned, the

8

private prisons industry always maintains that it's

9

very concerned about the welfare of the public.

10

By the way, the escape ratio that was

11

mentioned earlier was 30 -- The escape ratio was 30

12

times as high, and it was misquoted when it was read

13

to you.

14

What that survey was, was it was an

15

analysis of escapes from the California prison

16

system which is roughly equivalent--had a higher

17

population but not terribly higher--it's roughly

18

equivalent to the private prison population

19

nationally.

20

So they looked at the escapes from the

21

private system -- or from the public system in one

22

state only, and nationally for private prisons which

23

had about 140,000 beds, I think.

24

numbers there.

25

You have the

So it wasn't a California-to-California

0148
1

survey.

2

comparable-sized populations and custody levels 30

3

times as high.

4

It was just an escape-to-escape survey with

And I have watched these.

I have watched

5

their riots in these.

6

after riot in state after state where convicts--and

7

this will be a phrase that is familiar to you--voted

8

with their matches.

9

feet.

10
11

I have videotape of riot

They don't vote with their

They vote with their matches.

And they burn

these places down.
I visited Crowley--the one where I

12

predicted the riot two months in advance--while it

13

was still smoldering.

14

July 20th, '04.

15

July 22nd to watch the embers being put out.

16

It burned up on the night of

And I was there on the morning of

Let me see if there is anything else,

17

real quick.

18

questions, if that's okay.

19

And then I will turn it over to your

I talk about the corruption and you

20

wouldn't believe about how much there was.

21

Just another thing.

We have talked about

22

union versus anti-union, because your unions have

23

the members, the workers.

24

of you are familiar with the unions, usually do

25

apprenticeship and training programs.

Unions, of course, if any

0149
1
2

It doesn't, of course, happen with the
privates.

3

Well, what you are looking at is not only

4

the training issues, but when you are paying

5

somebody 7 or 8 or 9 bucks an hour, when you are

6

paying a prison guard, and not a correctional

7

officer, 7 or 8 or 9 bucks an hour, you are

8

exporting Pennsylvania tax dollars to Boca Raton,

9

Florida for GEO Group, or CCA in Nashville,

10

Tennessee, or Cornell in Houston, or MTC in Salt

11

Lake City.

12

They are going to other states.

13

benefiting people.

14

Those monies are flying out the door.
They are not

We have talked about retirement.

I have

15

talked about how little they get.

16

their retirement systems, their retirement benefit

17

and benefit package are equivalent.

18

They talk about

In the state of Florida, they, GEO Group,

19

offered, I believe, a match, a one-to-two match, so

20

$2500 up to a $5,000 max. to anybody that wanted to

21

participate in the retirement.

22

little that only 10 percent of the employees could

23

participate in that.

24
25

But they get paid so

It's inconsequential.

So you wind up with people on Social
Security.

And that's it.

They have no retirement.

0150
1

They have no pension.

2

stay in that job.

3

sense, when you have got a family to raise and food

4

to put on the table.

5
6

They have no determination to

It just doesn't make any career

I should let you have at me.

really happy to answer any questions you have.

7

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

8

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

9

I'll be

Okay.

Tim.

Just very briefly.

I appreciate your testimony, and I think you really

10

hit the nail on the head when you talked about

11

mentoring.

12

there was staff there for very long periods of time.

Certainly, the state prison I was at,

13

MR. SMITH:

Absolutely.

14

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

15

all different kinds of ancillary services.

Maintenance staff,

16

And even when people were doing things,

17

very simple tasks, if they did it and it wasn't by

18

prison -- or by DOC policy, they would take negative

19

feedback from their peers.

20

MR. SMITH:

Right.

21

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

Let alone thinking

22

about doing something, you know, incredibly wrong,

23

like introducing things into the facility that they

24

shouldn't.

25

MR. SMITH:

Sure.

0151
1

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

So I just commend

2

you for your testimony.

I think it's incredibly

3

helpful for all the members to hear, and I think you

4

really hit the nail on the head with the mentoring

5

piece.

I really appreciated that.

6

MR. SMITH:

7

REPRESENTATIVE SEIP:

8

11

Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

9
10

Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
In your written testimony, I am moved by

12

the testimony of the Roman Catholic Bishops on the

13

issue of private prisons.

14

MR. SMITH:

15

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

16

Yes.
I have rarely

seen a stronger letter.

17

MR. SMITH:

It was quite astonishing.

18

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

19

MR. SMITH:

I would agree.

And it was very well -- It

20

was subject to extreme deliberation from many

21

bishops from around -- The Southern Bishops or is

22

that the national one?

23
24
25

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

It doesn't

identify -- The US Catholic Bishops.
MR. SMITH:

Okay.

That's the national

0152
1

one.

The Southern Bishops were even more caustic in

2

their appraisal.

3

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

4

heading, I thought, was riveting.

5

Wardens from Wall Street.

It's titled,

6

MR. SMITH:

7

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

8

Right.

MR. SMITH:

10

Sure.

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

11

groups?

12

prison corporations?

13

have no prison background.

15
16

And I think

that about sums it up.

9

14

But the

Who are these

What's the makeup of these for-profit
Who are these folks?

MR. SMITH:

They

Some of them have a prison

background and some of them don't.
Like I said, there is that revolving door

17

thing that Eisenhower warned us about 50 years ago.

18

Almost 50 years ago.

19

more than it was 10 years ago, called the prison

20

industrial complex.

And it's legitimately now much

But that's who they are.

21

They also get some people --

22

Sometimes they get some very good people.

23

A friend of mine was -- he was in Vietnam the same

24

time I was, 40 years ago.

25

in the Marines.

He was a great commander

When he got out, he went to work

0153
1

with GEO Group.

2

2001.

3

He was their warden of the year in

In 2002, they blew the whistle on him

4

because they were doing things that were so

5

outlandish.

6

believe.

7

And he eventually won.

8

lot less than he could have gotten because he was

9

dying of cancer at that part.

They talked to the IG (phonetic), I

And they fired him.

And he sued them.

He settled probably for a

10

But they get some really good people in.

11

But a good person doesn't last in these

12

systems because a good person has integrity and

13

professionalism.

14

mirror if you know what's going on.

15

And you can't look yourself in the
If you know --

In Coke County, there has been horrendous

16

stuff in Coke County, Texas.

17

don't know how good he is, he is probably not very,

18

but he did say that he had been asking GEO Group for

19

the money to sort the place out.

20

The warden there, I

It was so bad that when the state

21

inspectors came in a few weeks ago, they went out

22

and their shoes were sticking to the ground because

23

there were feces on their shoes.

24
25

They are getting, like in New Morgan
Academy, they are getting almost $300 a day.

Down

0154
1

there, Texas is a cheaper state, they are getting

2

$206 a day to take care of these kids.

3

in the most filthy, abominable conditions,

4

exploited, abused.

5

And they are

You know, they had escapes.

They turned it into a juvenile male

6

prison because they had such horrendous experience

7

with females.

8

these women, these young girls, rather, were abused,

9

sexually abused--they took all the girls out of

So nine years ago, they--after all of

10

there and they replaced them with boys.

11

hasn't improved.

12

But it

And here's a warden, I can't imagine he's

13

still working there, because three weeks ago, he

14

said, I asked them for the money and they wouldn't

15

give it to me.

16

He also said, they did give me money so I

17

could raise people $2 an hour.

But I tell you,

18

raising people from 7.50 or 8 bucks an hour to 10,

19

does not put food on anybody's table.

20

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Mr. Chairman, I

21

would suggest that we do keep in touch with Mr.

22

Smith, as Representative Goodman's bill moves

23

through the Labor Committee.

24

strong advocate and would help us tremendously in

25

getting a better understanding of this issue.

I think you are a

0155
1
2

MR. SMITH:

that, Representative McGeehan.

3
4

I thank you very much for

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:
questions?

5

Thank you.

Any

Neal?
REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

No.

I guess it

6

is just safe to say that you will approve of my

7

legislation.

8

MR. SMITH:

Yeah.

9

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

And I would

10

appreciate if we could keep in contact, you know, as

11

this bill moves through the legislative process.

12

mean, I think the people that served on the

13

committee today have been enlightened, but there are

14

many of my colleagues, once this thing hits the

15

Floor, that will be looking for the same type of

16

information that you have provided today to the

17

committee.

18

MR. SMITH:

I

It's very obvious to me that

19

many of the people on this committee, on this joint

20

committee, have done their home work, and they

21

understand the problems before any testimony was

22

heard at all.

23

And I really appreciate that.

One of the big problems I have is when --

24

And I travel a lot around the country.

I go to all

25

of these different municipalities where they have

0156
1

got a bunch of rubes, unfortunately.

2

tiny town where we have had our rubes.

3

conned by these guys.

4

had a proposal.

6

sold out to Cornell a few months ago.

7

you for em or again' em?

8

again' em, you know.

9

closed the door.

13

They had the GRW prison, which just
She said, are

And I said, I'm really

And she said, well.

And she

And she said, they lie about

everything.

11
12

They get

The city clerk in Brush, Colorado, which

5

10

I live in a

She has had her mayor sued, time after
time.
They had a youth prison there where they

14

had one kid who was 13-years-old, who was sexually

15

abused by staff--these kids were being abused by

16

staff--who committed suicide.

17

a look at it and said, oh, my God.

18

Governor of Indiana flew his own plane there to pick

19

up their kids and bring them back to Indiana.

20

And other states took
I think the

It was that much of a panic situation,

21

like it was in Coke County three weeks ago, in

22

Texas, where they got them out overnight.

23

finally become so obvious, that the conditions were

24

just excruciating.

25

It had

And her mayors got sued for that.

0157
1

Then GRW bought it and her mayor got sued

2

for that, because they funnel the money.

3

ways they cut costs and they externalize costs and

4

they cheapen what looks like the real price tag is

5

because they get these municipalities, that think

6

they are doing economic development, to buy into

7

them and finance their bonding so they get low

8

interest rates and the taxpayer is on the hook for

9

it.

10

One of the

The taxpayers are not only the hook.

11

Like the Graham brothers, they were famous in Texas,

12

built eight prisons around the state and they

13

couldn't put prisoners in there.

14

know, because they were in disfavor with the then

15

Governor, the woman who became governor is Ann

16

Richards.

17

So they went bust.

They couldn't, you

And then one of them

18

claimed he was a high department of Corrections

19

official and offered to break somebody out of jail

20

and the feds. gave a woman a hundred -- a convict's

21

girlfriend $150,000 to break him out.

22

busted him.

23

So they

And they had him on IRS charges, too.

These two guys then went to Jena,

24

Louisiana, which has been mentioned here.

25

horrendous prison.

It's a

GEO Group had a horrible record

0158
1

there.

2

Went to Jena, Louisiana.

3

to Governor Edwards, who was the ex-Governor.

4

was going to become Governor again and he was on his

5

way back to re-election.

6

want this.

7

you help us out?

8

them out.

9

And they went
He

And said, you know, we

We need public money to build this.

Can

And for about $300,000, he helped

The interesting thing was, these guys

10

were so dirty, the FBI didn't use them.

11

wouldn't have been good witnesses because they had

12

such a record.

13

They

But what they did do is they got Eddie

14

DeBartolo, the owner of the San Francisco 49ers,

15

given the bag then for Governor Edwards, who is now

16

doing 10 years in the Federal Pen., a briefcase with

17

$400,000 in it.

18

I mean, we are talking about big money

19

with these guys.

20

these prisons.

21

off in order to do it.

22

sheriff close to mine, or big-time officials like

23

perhaps even a US Senator.

24
25

They make enormous profits on

And they are willing to piece people
Local officials like the

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:
Chairman.

Thank you, Mr.

0159
1
2

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank

you, sir.

3

MR. SMITH:

4

being here.

5

deliberations.

I have really appreciated

I have really appreciated

6

Representative Waters.

7

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

8

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

9

Okay.

Mr. Chairman?
One more.

We

will be all right.

10

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

One quick

11

question.

12

something about the owners of the facilities had

13

made large profits, a lot of money.

14

you:

15

feel?

I wanted to ask

how does the taxpayers in those communities

16
17

Earlier in your testimony, you said

MR. SMITH:

I am sorry.

I couldn't quite

hear you.

18

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

How does the

19

taxpayers in those communities feel, knowing that

20

this is going to be a cost-savings?

21

running the facilities and the people who are

22

running them are making these kind of huge profits?

23

MR. SMITH:

They are

They don't know it.

In fact,

24

I had some -- I passed out some and I have some more

25

with me.

It's CCA.

20 years.

It's a very good

0160
1

retrospective history of CCA.

2

I gave one to my best-ever whistle

3

blower.

4

fired because she gave a deposition to a woman that

5

was obviously being sexually harassed.

6

sexually harassed.

7

She was a unit manager in Colorado, who got

I gave it to her.

Worse than

And she said, she had

8

worked for them in Las Vegas.

She had worked for

9

them in Huerfano, which is a Colorado institution.

10

She had worked for them in Crowley, which was the

11

one that rioted, in which she had given me all of

12

the --

13

When they had the riot --

14

I met her in Pueblo, Colorado.

15

And she was on the phone.

The people

16

inside the institution, who were giving her

17

blow-by-blow descriptions of what was happening

18

inside while I had reporters and TVs and cameras all

19

around me, and I am getting it directly from inside

20

the institution, that the state of Colorado couldn't

21

figure out.

22

But when I gave her that, she said--of

23

all the things that were in there, it's an 81-page,

24

I think, monograph--she said, year after year they

25

would come to us, and they would say, gee, we can't

0161
1

pay a Christmas bonus this year and there won't be

2

any raise, things are really tight, times are

3

terrible.

4

And then she finds out that the guy who

5

started it, the co-founder Doc Crantz (phonetic),

6

Doctor Crantz, Doctor is his first name, was making

7

over $10 million a year.

8

they can't afford to give us 50 cents an hour and

9

this guy is making $10 million a year.

And they are telling us

10

has never dropped a nickel.

11

and up.

12

His salary

It just goes up and up

And that's -- I mean, it was staggering

13

to her, to find that out after working in Vegas and

14

Huerfano and Crowley.

15

Colorado employee, a State of Wyoming employee,

16

traveling around because her husband's business

17

traveled.

18

they lied so pervasively and so convincingly.

19

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

20
21

She had been a State of

It was just astonishing to her because

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
MR. SMITH:

So, I mean, if the employees

22

don't know, the town's people are never going to

23

figure it out.

24
25

Did that answer your question?

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Well, I don't see

why they don't know, because you know.

I mean, can

0162
1

you help them here?

2
3

MR. SMITH:

You know why?

There's so

much -- Like I said, I found this ACA thing here.

4

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

5

MR. SMITH:

Um-hum.

I just dig up stuff

6

everywhere.

7

retirement, just a week ago.

8

before.

9

one out of 160 employees retires every year in the

10

I found that, the numbers on
I had never seen those

I was astonished by those numbers.

private prison industry?

11

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

12

MR. SMITH:

13

Um-hum.

Could you imagine any other

industry like that?

14

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

15

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16

MR. SMITH:

17

20
21
22

No.
Thank you.

Thank you very much.

It's

really been a pleasure.

18
19

That

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you,

Frank.
Dave Fillman, Darrin Spann, AFSCME
Council 13.
MR. FILLMAN:

Okay.

Thank you, Chairman

23

Caltagirone and Chairman McGeehan and members of the

24

Labor and Judicial Committees.

25

Fillman and I am the Executive Director of Council

My name is David

0163
1

13 of AFSCME.

2

Executive Assistant to myself and also a former

3

county correctional officer.

4

To my right is Darrin Spann, he's the

I am honored to represent more than

5

65,000 public employees in the commonwealth, and

6

approximately 2500 of these employees work in state

7

and county prisons.

8
9
10

I would like to have my entire testimony
entered into the record.
I have an additional five-page document

11

with further information so I can keep within the

12

time lines of your testimony.

13

The incarceration of our citizens is, and

14

should remain, a function of our government.

15

society was built upon the premise that there is

16

nothing more important than our personal freedom.

17

Citizens of this country have laid down their lives,

18

and continue to do so, in an effort to preserve

19

their freedom.

20

Our

And when we decide, through our

21

government's justice system, that a citizen's

22

actions warrant losing that freedom, it should be

23

the responsibility of government to enforce that

24

loss, not an opportunity for private corporations to

25

obtain monetary gain.

Individuals convicted of a

0164
1

crime should remain prisoners of the state, not

2

commodities to be contracted out to the lowest

3

bidder.

4

The pursuit of profits jeopardizes public

5

safety.

6

both within the walls of the prison and within the

7

community.

8

corrections personnel dedicated to preserving public

9

safety knowing that they will be appropriately

10

Cost-cutting leads to dangerous conditions

Prisons must be staffed by professional

compensated for their service.

11

When the average maximum salary for a

12

private prison guard is more than the average

13

starting salary for a public corrections officer,

14

commitment is low and the turnover is high.

15

average, the turnover rate at a private prison is 52

16

percent, compared to 16 percent in publicly-run

17

prisons.

18

unfilled for long periods of time or filled by

19

poorly trained staff.

20

situation but a costly one.

21

expenses as a result of for-profit prisons is the

22

expense needed to capture escapees.

23

On

This results in positions being left

This is not only a dangerous
One of the major hidden

Private-run facilities don't have the

24

authority to come into the community and search out

25

escape prisoners.

Valuable time is lost when calls

0165
1

to local and state police are the only resource to

2

employees without the legal right to search the

3

community.

4

companies leave governments to pick up the tab for

5

unanticipated expenses or costly mistakes.

6

And low bids by for-profit prison

Government-run prisons do a better job of

7

rehabilitating prisoners, are more accountable,

8

better trained, and protect public safety more

9

effectively.

Private prison operators have no

10

incentive to reduce overcrowding, no incentive to

11

consider alternatives to incarceration, and no

12

incentive to deal with the broader questions of

13

criminal justice.

14

When stockholders profit from overcrowded

15

prisons, cost-cutting becomes the primary objective,

16

often at the expense of public safety, the quality

17

of life in the community, the humane treatment of

18

the inmates, and the well-being of prison employees.

19

Citizens have a right to be confident in

20

the promise that prisons built and operated in their

21

communities will be run by competent, professional

22

and dependable staff.

23

that the only priority of the prison operators is

24

the secure, safe and humane operation of the

25

facility; not how a decision on a security matter

Citizens should also assured

0166
1

will affect the profit margin.

2

I am a labor leader.

Protecting workers

3

is what I do.

I need to look at the big picture.

4

And the big picture is clear.

5

prisoners is a very slippery and dangerous slope.

6

Since the implementation of this concept, we have

7

seen abandoned motels renovated to prisons in Texas.

8

We have seen prisons popping up in the rural

9

flatlands of southern states like shopping malls.

Merchandising

10

And while for-profit advocates may argue

11

that these facilities bring money and jobs to these

12

areas, the big picture is quite the opposite.

13

a corporation is in control, employees simply aren't

14

protected.

15

regard for seniority.

16

few.

17

When

People are fired and hired with no
Wages are cut.

Benefits are

And turnover is high.
A depressed community may see a new

18

facility as a shot in the arm to their economy, but

19

at what expense?

20

prisoners are released back into the community with

21

no rehab. programs, who will protect the community?

22

And when that facility eventually goes up for sale,

23

who will protect those workers left at the mercy of

24

a new administration?

25

When prisoners escape or when

In conclusion, just ask yourself one

0167
1

simple question.

2

to you, in whose hands would you want the

3

responsibility of that institution to be placed:

4

the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, or the

5

Acme Prison, Incorporated?

6

If they built a prison next door

Incarcerating criminals--taking away an

7

individual's freedom--is one of government's most

8

fundamental responsibilities.

9

this responsibility stays in the hands of sworn

10

officers.

11
12

It is crucial that

We should never allow crime to pay for
anyone.

13

Thank you for this opportunity, and

14

Darrin and I welcome the opportunity to answer

15

questions.

16

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Representative.

17

REPRESENTATIVE McGEEHAN:

Just a comment.

18

I hope, Mr. Executive Director, you team up with Mr.

19

Smith.

20

No one knows better that plight of workers, not just

21

in prisons but around the commonwealth, and you and

22

your able assistants and executive board.

23

Because that was a powerful presentation.

So I appreciate your testimony.

It means

24

a lot to this committee, I know.

And we look

25

forward to working with you, to see that the Goodman

0168
1

bill gets out of committee, onto the Floor, and

2

becomes law.

3

As you are aware, New York State--I

4

shared with Representative Goodman this morning--

5

that Governor Spitzer signed a Goodman-type bill

6

into law in New York just three months ago.

7

hope Pennsylvania becomes the second state to do

8

that.

9

MR. FILLMAN:

10

So I

That would be wonderful.

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Let me just say

11

that I know that AFSCME does an excellent job in

12

representing their employees, and it's always an

13

honor to work with you guys and ladies in presenting

14

your positions here on the Hill.

15

have a lot of friends up here, because you do a good

16

job, with what you do, with the things in what you

17

represent.

And you know you

18

MR. FILLMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

19

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

20

Thank you, too, for your testimony.

Mr. Chairman.
I

21

believe, too, that your testimony went a long way in

22

helping to help us look at this a whole lot better.

23

And I like the way that you ended it.

24

Who would you rather have if the place was built

25

next to you?

You know, I think that says a lot.

0169
1

I want to ask you, does people who are in

2

the private prison industry become -- do they -- are

3

allowed to be union members?

4

MR. FILLMAN:

5

REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

6

Yes, they can.
They can become

union members?

7

MR. FILLMAN:

Yes, they can.

Well, they

8

would fall under the National Labor Relations Act as

9

opposed to the Pennsylvania Act for Public

10
11
12

Employees.
REPRESENTATIVE WATERS:

Okay.

All right.

Thank you very much.

13

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

14

Thank you, gentlemen.

15

MR. FILLMAN:

16

MR. SPANN:

17

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.
We will next

18

hear from Nathan Benefield, Director of Policy

19

Research, the Commonwealth Foundation.

20

MR. BENEFIELD:

Thank you.

Thank you,

21

Chairman Caltagirone and members of the committee,

22

for inviting us to testify today.

23

keep my testimony brief, since you have a written

24

copy and I know the schedule is running behind a

25

little bit.

I will try and

But for those on PCN, who want to get a

0170
1

copy of it, it's on our website at the

2

CommonwealthFoundation.org.

3

all of the studies I cite in that.

4

And that has a link to

Our belief is that HB 1469 is misguided

5

in its aims.

6

crunch, as we expect far greater demands for prison

7

space than we currently have space available.

8
9

Pennsylvania currently faces a prison

Private prisons can help to meet this
need.

Many studies demonstrate that private prisons

10

are more efficient than government-run prisons, and

11

typically save taxpayers between 10 and 15 percent

12

on prisoner costs.

13

private prisons can typically provide as good or

14

better quality service and lower incidents of

15

violence than government-run prisons.

16

Many studies also show that

I will start off to say, talking about

17

the prison crunch.

18

currently above capacity, and the Pennsylvania

19

Department of Corrections anticipates that by 2011,

20

the need for space will be about 120 percent of

21

current capacity.

22

Pennsylvania prisons are

Pennsylvania prisons are also among the

23

nation's most costly facilities in per prisoner

24

cost, and the $1.6 billion budget for corrections

25

will continue to escalate in future years.

0171
1

The commonwealth faces a looming prison

2

crisis both in capacity and cost, and private

3

prisons can play a useful role in addressing this

4

crisis.

5

Prison privatization is not new or an

6

experimental or an untried method.

Nationally,

7

about 7 percent of prisoners are housed in private

8

facilities in 2005.

9

state-by-state.

Private prison rates vary

Certain states have much more

10

common prison privatization.

11

have more than a quarter of their inmates housed in

12

private facilities.

13

Wyoming, Hawaii, Alaska, and Montana.

14

Currently, four states

These include New Mexico,

And this experience of other states with

15

prison privatization should serve as case studies

16

for Pennsylvania.

17

A number of studies, which are

18

highlighted in my written testimony, find

19

significant cost-savings in private prisons, most

20

commonly in the range of about 10 to 15 percent in

21

per-inmate costs.

22

Additionally, states that have introduced

23

privatization in prisons have seen slower rates of

24

growth in correctional costs.

25

a higher percentage of prisoners in private

The states that have

0172
1

facilities see slower rates of growth in those

2

costs.

3

Based on these estimates, if Pennsylvania

4

were to place about 30 percent of inmates in private

5

facilities, taxpayers could save upwards of $100

6

million annually, with higher savings expected in

7

future years.

8
9

Critics of private prisons typically
allege that privatization leads to lower service

10

quality and endangers public safety.

11

opposite appears to be true.

12

prisons have experienced problems, without

13

question--not unlike government-run prisons--on the

14

whole, private prisons have a better record of

15

performance than do government-run facilities.

16

In fact, the

While some private

Contractual requirements and financial

17

incentives force privately-managed correctional

18

facilities to maintain order and security, provide

19

educational and rehabilitation programs, and respect

20

inmates' civil liberties.

21

All prisons, public and private, must

22

deal with issues of violence.

But in the private

23

sector, prison management and staff can be held

24

accountable for a failure to perform.

25

terminate a contract with a private prison

States can

0173
1

management:

2

more likely to face penalties, or be fired; and

3

private companies may go out of business if they

4

don't perform adequately.

5

government-run prison was shut down because of

6

rioting, abuse, poor care, or so forth?

7

private managers and staff are much

When is the last time a

But the performance of private prisons is

8

not merely conjecture or theoretical; we have

9

evidence from 34 states.

Many studies show private

10

prisons outperforming state-run facilities on

11

quality and performance indicators.

12

A review of prison performance studies

13

found that nine out of ten rigorous studies of

14

quality found higher quality of service in private

15

prisons, as did most of the less rigorous studies.

16

I have highlighted a number of these

17

studies in my testimony, so I will assume you have

18

read those and I won't try and go through all of

19

that.

20

It is also useful to note that private

21

corrections facilities are much more likely than

22

state-run prisons to obtain accreditation with the

23

American Correctional Association.

24

compliance with that organization's standards of

25

quality for operation, management, and maintenance.

This certifies

0174
1

Part of this discrepancy lies in the private

2

prisons' need to demonstrate quality to the state,

3

to the media, and to the public, in order to obtain

4

and retain contracts; whereas pubic prisons face no

5

such scrutiny.

6

And finally, I would like to point out

7

that competitive contracting for new or existing

8

prisons allow the state to pick from competing

9

providers; and it should base this decision not

10

merely on cost-savings, but also look at past

11

performance, look at security measures and the like,

12

and consider the totality of what a private provider

13

can offer before awarding any contract.

14

And finally, let me talk about the job

15

issue.

16

prisoners and taxpayers are the focus of my

17

testimony--and I think they should be the guiding

18

principals of any policy consideration--but the

19

unions and the employees of public prisons tend to

20

be among those objecting most to prison

21

privatization.

22

The impact of prison privatization on

But prison privatization does not mean

23

lost jobs or lower pay.

An analysis by the Reason

24

Foundation indicates that privatization of existing

25

prisons result in a 93-percent retention of

0175
1

employees.

2

comparable compensation to state prisons.

3

incentives such as stock options, that are

4

impossible in the public sector.

5

Private prisons typically offer
Including

Finally, it should be noted that given

6

Pennsylvania's need for additional prison capacity,

7

private prisons would likely be additions to current

8

state prisons, rather than replacements for state

9

prisons.

Thus, the State Corrections Officers

10

Association need have no fear of fewer prison jobs,

11

AFSCME should have no worries of less union dues,

12

and lawmakers need not worry about losing control of

13

existing prisons.

14

In short, private prisons allow

15

Pennsylvania to address its growing need for

16

correctional facilities, at a lower cost to

17

taxpayers, while providing as good or better quality

18

of service.

19

Thank you for the opportunity to testify.

20

I will be happy to try and address any of the

21

questions you may have, though I think many of the

22

concerns would be better addressed either by

23

bringing in some private prison management or even

24

some of the state officers who have -- and some

25

states that have done a lot more prison

0176
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privatization that could address some of your major

2

concerns.

3

Thank you.

4
5

But I will try and field what I can.

CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:

Thank you,

Nathan.

6

Neal.

7

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

8

You know I am

going to have questions, don't you, Nathan?

9

I am not surprised that the Commonwealth

10

Foundation would not be in support of anything that

11

in any way sheds a bad light on privatization.

12
13

I know that one of the foundations of the
Commonwealth Foundation is privatizing many things.

14

I mean, that goes to one of your core

15

values.

You believe that the private industry can

16

do it better than government and so -- And I am not

17

going to argue with you on that, because I know

18

that's -- And you're entitled to your opinion,

19

Nathan.

20

I am just going to ask general questions.

21

I mean, I give you a lot of guts for sticking around

22

all day here.

23

intentionally so.

24
25

There is a loaded panel, but not

I mean, many of the companies that
operate private prisons were invited to be here

0177
1

today and decided not to show up.

2

you would stick around to the very end, I admire

3

your moxie.

4
5

So the fact that

Some of the things that I would like to
point out in your testimony.

6

On page two --

I mean, you heard some of the testimony

7

that was said today and so basically everything that

8

you have said in your testimony is the complete

9

opposite.

10

I mean, like they -- many of the

11

testifiers have pointed out how private prisons

12

actually do end up costing more or the same as

13

state-run facilities.

14

how, you know, escapes are some of the things that

15

are hidden costs that you don't necessarily see in a

16

contractual agreement because private prison

17

employees cannot go into the community looking for

18

an escapee.

19

then turned over to either the state police or local

20

law enforcement.

21

You have heard testimony of

You know, that is something that is

You can comment on any of these, Nathan.

22

I would like to have like just an open dialogue.

23

And, you know, if you want to --

24

MR. BENEFIELD:

(No response.)

25

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Or it says:

0178
1

based on these findings, if Pennsylvania were to

2

place 30 percent of its inmates in the private

3

facilities, taxpayers would save as much as $100

4

million annually.

5

I mean, that's in your testimony.

MR. BENEFIELD:

Yeah, that's based on a

6

10- to 15-percent savings, which was of the average

7

of the studies that I cited.

8

a chart that kind of goes through those studies.

9

And I think there was

I am sure there are.

I am almost.

There

10

are studies.

11

savings; there are many that show higher savings.

12

So I think it's -- you know, it -- And there is a

13

lot of evidence out there on that, that I think the

14

committee should, could look at.

15

There are some that say -- show low

And in regard to the other point about,

16

you know, the cost of the escapees.

17

the state contracts with a private prison, they

18

could, in fact, include in that contract, you know,

19

reimbursement for the cost of catching escapees as

20

part of the contract.

21

about private prisons can be contained within the

22

contract the state would have with any private

23

provider.

24

those kind of issues.

25

I think when

And many of the concerns

So I think that's one way to mitigate

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Well, that's, I

0179
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mean, you can basically put anything in a contract

2

that you want, but you know that what has gotten a

3

lot of other states in trouble is the fact that they

4

tried to do it cheaper than they are currently doing

5

it now; so they have a tendency to write their

6

contracts without a lot of these services, and they

7

basically allow the private sector to manage based

8

on a total contractual amount.

9

bring in lower benefits, and they bring in -- they

10

That's when they

don't pay as high a salary.

11

In fact, in here, you say that the state

12

can terminate the contract with a private without

13

penalties of being fired.

14

I mean, contracts go both ways, Nathan.

15

I mean.

16

just necessarily come in and cancel a contract,

17

because they are just as obligated as the other one

18

is if those savings aren't discovered.

19

And then they can't just -- The state can't

MR. BENEFIELD:

Well, they can't count

20

anything going on a whim, but they can put in

21

certain performance standards that are -- the

22

private contractor would have to meet.

23

they don't do so, allow it.

24
25

And in case

I mean, our position would be that we
should look at totality of any kind of contract with

0180
1

the private provider, not just trying to do the

2

lowest bid, the lowest cost.

3

provisions of what they offer, and not just try and

4

save money.

5

not just that, a low-cost provision.

6

That would be our position.

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

7

agree with that.

8

latitude here, Mr. Chairman.

9

Look at the security

That it's

Okay.

And I

I just -- And I appreciate the

Just if you could?

On page four, it

10

says, analysis by Research Foundation indicates that

11

privatization of existing prisons resulted in

12

93-percent retention of employees; where the

13

testifier before you told us that only one person in

14

160, actually, to his knowledge, pulled in enough

15

time to be able to retire with a pension.

16

seem to be contradictory terms.

17
18
19

So they

I wonder if you could tell me, who is
Reason Foundation?
MR. BENEFIELD:

The Reason Foundation,

20

they are a Washington D.C.-based research,

21

public-policy institute.

22

Commonwealth Foundation, only much larger and

23

nationally focused.

24

Reason.org.

25

research in this area than what I have.

They are similar to the

I think their website is

And they have done quite a bit more

0181
1

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Okay.

And my

2

last question would be:

3

for your testimony here, did you honestly find that

4

benefits, wages, and overall --

5

as you did your preparation

I mean, when you compare the private

6

sector to the public sector with regards to salary,

7

benefits, and working conditions, did you honestly

8

find them -- I mean, in your opinion, you found them

9

to be comparable?

10

MR. BENEFIELD:

I did not look at a whole

11

deal of evidence on that, on that issue.

12

think, one study showing similarities on that.

13

I haven't done --

14
15
16

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

I cited, I
And

And I just have

one comment I would like to make, Mr. Chairman.
I am not someone who thinks that bigger

17

government necessarily fits under every umbrella.

18

mean, I don't think that government should be in

19

everything.

20

government should be in control of the safety,

21

well-being of the citizens of the commonwealth; and

22

one of them is to the Department of Corrections.

23

I

But I really do believe that the

I understand that it is the philosophy of

24

the Commonwealth Foundation to be for privatization

25

of many things.

0182
1

And I think that you need to have a

2

little bit of latitude when you look into some of

3

these things.

4

Like when members like myself introduce

5

certain pieces of legislation that we know will

6

make -- will continue a way of life that we are used

7

to in Pennsylvania; and that is that, you know, that

8

the Department of Corrections will oversee every

9

prison, but yet allow for some privatization of some

10

of the things in that facility, that we are not

11

necessarily against all of privatization.

12

And I don't think the Commonwealth

13

Foundation should simply come out against something

14

because it goes against their core principal.

15

just find it -- I think if you would take another

16

look at the legislation, you may come out with a

17

different opinion at the end of that.

18

MR. BENEFIELD:

And I

I think the one comment I

19

would have had put on that, is that, we don't think

20

the state should relinquish responsibility for

21

corrections.

22

I would say we would agree with you, to some extent,

23

on that.

24

management of prisons.

25

But they can -- And we -- and we --

It's contracting out of the service, the

Although, I think we would go farther

0183
1

than you in terms of, well, what can be contracted

2

out.

3

contract does not entitle that state to relinquish

4

the responsibility for the care of those facilities

5

and the quality of service provided.

6

But I think our view would be that any

REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

And I think,

7

Nathan, that, you know, the crux of House Bill 1469

8

was to create a moratorium until a legislative task

9

force could be formed that could look into the pros

10

and cons of both private versus public, especially,

11

you know, taking into consideration the fact that

12

the commonwealth is thinking of building four new

13

correctional facilities.

14

The intention of my legislation is that

15

we address this issue prior to any departmental or

16

administrative decision to privatize.

17

crux of the legislation.

18

That's the

So I would appreciate if you would take

19

it back to the Foundation and have them re-think

20

their negative -- or their view of not supporting

21

this legislation.

22

you.

23
24
25

I would like to hear back from

MR. BENEFIELD:

(Nods head

affirmatively.)
REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN:

Good.

Okay.

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CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE:
your testimony.

Thank you for

This hearing is now adjourned.

(At or about 3:10 p.m., the hearing was
concluded.)
*

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*

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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Roxy C. Cressler, Reporter, Notary

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Public, duly commissioned and qualified in and for

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the County of York, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,

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hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and

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accurate transcript of my stenotype notes taken by

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me and subsequently reduced to computer printout

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under my supervision, and that this copy is a

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correct record of the same.

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This certification does not apply to any

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reproduction of the same by any means unless under

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my direct control and/or supervision.

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Dated this 13th day of November, 2007.

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Roxy C. Cressler - Reporter
Notary Public
My commission
expires 5/9/09